The trade-off of a bigger gun wouldn’t really be worth it.
At least for the Panther, which already had a very cramped turret and a larger gun with larger ammunition doesn’t help with that.
Basically the same result, if they put a T32s long 90mm into a M26.
There were already plans to built Panthers with full automatic 75mm feeding from a 5 round magazin below the gun, to increase the firepower of the Panther, without any major redesigns to the vehicle.
But they barely produced any Panther Fs in the first place.
For the Tiger II, the main issue would have been that the 10.5cm gun and ammunition wasn’t produced or used by other vehicles.
So from a logistic point of view, it wouldn’t have made sense.
With so many Shermans and T-34s on the battlefield, reducing RoF of a gun that was already more than capable to destroy them, also wouldn’t have made a lot of sense.
They already had the Jagdtiger for when they could expect armor strong enough to withstand a long 88mm.
Does anyone know the source of this diagram? I was thinking Jentz and Doyle but couldn’t find it in their VK45.02 to Tiger II book. Tineye’s reverse image search wasn’t much help.
I found some exciting works by @Armen_Lozone on WT Live, where He is working on the more historically accurate variants of the vehicles concerned. Although I share the sentiment by the OP, such accurate variants should be their own standalone addition. They are just too interesting to be used as some replacements or overhauls.
This is just my opinion of course, but I think the original German Tanks should come back for all together with the Accurate ones, so they do not stand alone in War Thunder giving false impressions of History.
Gaijin, please reconsider. These vehicles are still in the game, still a common sight, and we’re left with a divide between the ‘haves’ and the ‘have-nots’ decided simply by whether someone was able to play the game at the right time. They are fun, competitive vehicles which don’t hurt the balance of their respective BRs, not to mention really darn cool to some of us.
I believe that if the decision were put to an official vote, the majority of the playerbase would be in favour of their return. If @Smin1080p_WT, Stona or any CM were to forward one thing from this thread to the developers, please suggest that the vehicles’ return be put to a vote like you did for the APHE changes. And if that shows that the playerbase wants them back, there is no shame in catering to them. Pleasing your customers is good business and it can be done in a way that profits Gaijin too.
Regarding how Gaijin could still gain revenue from returning event vehicles. I think it applies in this thread, especially given that there is no potential loss of revenue in reintroducing the three German tanks, the R2Y2s, etc. as they aren’t available on the market.
I don’t know, this would kinda ruin/spoil the vehicles imo.
Imagine you were collecting old books. You are interested in Book X from the year 1820 and would like to add it to your collection. Now someone tells you that Book X in the 1820 Print is no longer accurate, and it is only acceptable that collectors like you and other hobbyists get Access to the revised, corrected Reprint from the year 2025.
How would you feel about this, if you were in the role of this Collector?
The Originals should be available again as they are, while eventually being complemented by their “Corrected, realistic configurations” like the ones Armen Lozone is working on at WT Live.
The incorrect ones will never go away, so Gaijin could add the “Corrected, realistic configurations” as new content to give players a choice between Inaccurrate but War Thunder Game History and Realistic Historic Design.
Counterpoint: If I was collecting books on military vehicles, and the only version of a particular book I could find was not the original, but the corrected version which was printed, say, 10 years later… I’m not gonna look for the original even though the information there is different.
Clearly they’re not coming back as they are, they should be corrected so everyone CAN have them.
I would have to agree with @KRL_MRX in that it would take away from the vehicles’ appeal for a lot of people. I doubt there are many players who like the tanks, yet at the same time wish they could be detuned for accuracy.
The tanks as they are are fun and comfortable to play, partly because of the things that make them ‘incorrect’. And that’s a term I use loosely, at least for the Tiger II 105 - if we can include the gun that makes the tank what it is, we can easily include the rangefinder and engine as I assume they were the more feasible of the proposed upgrades.
And given that they will always be ahistorical to some degree, why not make the sky the limit and keep the proposals combined? Personally, I just love the way they look as a package and wouldn’t want them changed.
That being said, I would like to see things like the ‘correct’ Panther II alongside keeping the originals. Would that be the one with the Panther G turret slapped together by the Americans?
Because two of them are quite literally in impossible configurations, and at least the Panther II is combining completely unrelated projects. Unsure on Tiger 2 105 for that last part but it’s just as impossible.
Most ‘paper’ vehicles are in a “this could have been made, but wasn’t” category - like the R2Y2s; the Tiger 2 105 and Panther II are simply impossible to make work in any reality that doesn’t involve portals and Bags Of Holding.
So as it stands they’re never coming back unless gaijin starts doing entirely fictional vehicles a la that-other-tank-game or they get reworked into ones that could have existed at some point (which is what I suggest).
Fair enough, I get where you’re coming from. For the reasons you mentioned, I would completely understand Gaijin not adding them if they weren’t already part of the game. Even if Gaijin had outright removed them, deleting them from the accounts of players that had them, I would (woefully) think “it’s harsh, but I can see their logic”.
But they do exist in the game today and for that reason I think they ought to be a special case. I don’t expect them to set a new standard for what’s acceptable, I would just like them to be obtainable in some form so that all players have the chance to experience them. Call them holdovers from what the game once was.
As for reworking them, two problems that spring to mind are:
Like I mentioned, people who like the vehicles won’t be happy to have them drastically neutered
Many new owners would feel sad that they’re only given the ‘worse’ versions and can’t experience the vehicles as they once were
There is a precedent for this, which is what happened to the CV 90105. It was completely remodeled not long after its introduction.
Then
Now
They’re slowly removing these holdovers, though. I’ll expand more on this below.
This is with any vehicle. I’m sure Ki-43-III Otsu players did not enjoy losing 1/4 of their engine power overnight, or MBT-70’s dart getting a huge penetration nerf, or the Ho 229 and Type 89 getting a bajillion nerfs.
At some point you have to draw the line. The issue remains that they’re not just fictional, they were added in outright impossible configurations.
A VERY fun tank, a little overtiered and suffering from BR compression. But it SHOULD be reworked into the real Ho-Ri:
…Which ties into what I said above: the old holdover ‘cope vehicles’ are getting removed as replacements come along. We just watched this very recently with the Thai air subtree being added and the R2Y2s removed (even though R2Y2 V1 COULD have existed and was the only ‘real’ configuration, with V2 and V3 being very much fictional).
I very much expect the two Ho-Ris to be soft-removed whenever the Thai ground subtree shows up, and will be looking to buy the premium Ho-Ri Prototype on the next sales.
Now sure, it will be a great loss to Japan that such a capable vehicle with a playstyle completely absent from the rest of the tree (and most other trees) is essentially removed, but it’s a paper tank and it’s not even the Ho-Ri design they chose to make. On top of that it has a nonexistent engine and armor far above what they could make for tanks. I believe the gun is overtuned as well, but don’t quote me on that.
The Ho-Ri Prototype is closer to reality but it’s still not the real thing.
But none of them look any different though, they stayed as cool as they were.
I am very saddened by this. People paid for that vehicle assuming this is what they get. In my personal opinion, they should have been allowed to keep the original and receive the Rework automatically and for free.
Feedback is consistently passed to the developers on all subjects across the game, including this one.
We have on multiple occasions provided the developers response on this subject, being that there are no current plans for the return of these vehicles. The reasons for their removal and why they are not planned to be returned have been detailed for some time: [Development] Changes and optimization in the German tech-tree - News - War Thunder
There’s a reason suggestions exist.
But somehow not even the simplest suggestions get approved and you aren’t even told why.
Amazing system.
You can spent hours on a historical report only to have some mod ignore it and close it because it doesn’t fit their viewpoint.
They just be like: No, your wrong. Case closed. lol
The only time something might get through to the Devs when the really mess up the game and people flood the comments under a patch note.
Or when there’s is a huge backlash against what Gaijin wants to do.
Whenever something has a chance to change something about the game it goes through mods first. The chance of anything changing about the game because it’s discussed to death on the forums is literally zero.
Or tell me, when was something changed about the game that wasn’t based on bug report, suggestions or the result of some community backlash?
