True, forgot about that
People really seem to think that a HMD is some divine tool that makes the F-4J/S way better than the British Phantoms, when in reality it just makes getting radar locks very slightly easier
Yes
Ah Yes my 75mm Jumbo Sherman will now more consistently see IS-2s and Tiger 2 Ps, I think that is extremely fair and balanced. I also think that my 76mm Jumbo Sherman being at the same BR as those tanks I mentioned is also quite fair I thank gaijin for their equitable choices here.
6 Likes
Really? straight half the performance?
Skyflash STs (basically Aim-7F) on the F3 Im firing from 20km getting kills. Skyflash DFs on the FGR2 rarely kill when fired passed about 6-8km.
In the compressed context of 12.0+. This renders the FGR2 basically doa as basically EVERYTHING can outrange you
But im game with removing Aim-7F from the US phantoms.
1 Like
Suggestion
Naval
Russian Leningrad Class - Moskva
4.3=4.3, but remove HE-VT
Moskva sank in June 1941, that’s before even the US conducted large scale VT testing let alone the Russians who a decade later still only had limited quantities. .
Whilst I have no objections to minor ahistoric changes to make a vehicle effective I believe this is pushing it too far as the Moskva is perfectly usable without these shells.
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The ships has decent conventional Secondaries/AA. There is no need for a major fake buff.
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Later ships from Italy, Germany and France do not get HE-VT. If one gets it then shouldn’t all to avoid the notion of Bias!?! ?(or maybe no ships at all modeled as being in service before the first fleet test on USS Cleveland in Aug 42)
6 Likes
What the hell are you on? In a joust there is barely any difference between the Skyflash and the AIM-7F
Skyflash DFs have half the effective range of an Aim-7F.
Or are you saying that Aim-7E-2 and Aim-7F have identical performance?
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What are you using Skyflashes for? BVR?
Yes?
It is a SARH missile, why wouldnt I be using it in BVR?
Even in the context of WVR, the Aim-7Fs are notably superior in most respects.
Though you are DOA vs the F-16s and F-18s and even Mig-23MLDs, so you arent winning many dogfights in the FGR2 either. (especially with the gunpod)
Then the radar is pretty poor, especially if the target is at low alt, so using a Skyflash DF outside of headons is also kinda impractical
I dont bother with the FGR2 in ARB, because its DOA, but in ASB, basically all you can do is try and BVR the Mig-23MLDs in the micro window where you outrange their R-24Rs, but within 8km, you are weaker in every single respect
Skyflash DF is a significant downgrade over the Aim-7F the other F-4s carry at 12.0, and with how useless any non-IRCCM IR missile are at the moment, the lack of ability to run 6x SARH, or the ability to even run 4x 12.0 SARH is a notable nerf.
3 Likes
Aim-7F is a welcome upgrade to the E-2/DF Skyflash, but all 3 are solid missiles with their respective use cases. Besides close range off-boresight shots, these missiles are similar enough in performance in the current state of ARB.
Not to mention, again, that the British FG.1 and FGR.2 have higher speeds, more energy retention, better acceleration, and more CMs. A downgraded missile doesn’t diminish those and Skyflash is decent enough, and I’m sure the 10.7s/10.3s that would face that monster in an uptier should it be moved down would agree even more so.
1 Like
Vehicle: B-66B
Gamemode: Air Realistic
BR Change: 9.0 —> 8.7
Reason: This aircraft has no advantages even when playing in the downtier: it has no flares, no maneuverability, and doesn’t even have forward armament. The turret, which should somehow make its life easier, lacks a radar (which is present on the fuselage). This aircraft will at least be playable if its BR is reduced or if it’s equipped with at least some flares.
3 Likes
Except they are just straight up not?
I dont understand how a missile with straight HALF the effective range is considered “similar in performance”?
Even within the context of sub 8km shots, that absolute maximum range id ever usually fire a Skyflash DF at unless I was at like 20k ft, the Aim-7F fired at the same range would hit and kill first, let alone be able to be fired from further away and still hit first.
Higher speeds at lower altitudes, but actually worse top speeds at higher altitudes where the BVR missiles are more effective.
No difference in energy retention, if anything that is worse because the FGR2 has greater mass.
Better acceleration at low altitudes.
Im not saying it should move down, but I do think they should get Skyflash SuperTEMPs but pretending that the FGR2/FG1 and especially the F4JUNK are equal in performance to the F-4J (US) and F-4S which are notably stronger is just a bit wierd.
Id gladly take 6x Aim-7Fs over the slightly better low altitude flat line speed
What next, Tornado GR4 and the F-15A are similar in performance?
2 Likes
I thought we were talking about bringing the E-2s on a F-4S. Their radars are identical.
Because the Phantom is a terrible BVR platform and its best use in the current state of the game is to joust.
That has nothing to do with the missile.
Good thing the MiG-23MLs radar is worse than that of the Phantoms in a jousting scenario
It’s not a significant downgrade and not taking AIM-9Gs is just plain silly
Fine, but point still stands, Aim-7F, used at longer ranges in a headon is effective, Aim-7E-2 and Skyflash DF at short ranges is impractical because of rubbish radar performance,
Right? And the Aim-7F can be fired at twice the range? Making it twice as good at jousting, and even fired at the same ranges, like say, 6-8km which is about the max range you’ll get from a Skyflash DF, the Aim-7F equipped F-4 would always get that kill because the aim-7F is still supersonic by the time it hits, the Skyflash DF would ahve long since gone Subsonic.
It has everything to do with the effectiveness of the platform.
If firing Aim-7F or equivalents is denied to the platform, it is therefore required to operate in WVR, where it is then DOA.
So you cant BVR because you dont have good enough SARHs, and you cant WVR because you dont have a good enough FM for it. Which leaves you? Doing what exactly? Cant even really base bomb because the US F-4s have Napalm, and even with their weaker engines, will beat you to bases with their massively lower weight and drag
Its good enough, more than good enough to guide an R-24R in a headon.
Skyflash DFs are straight up 50% the performance of the Aim-7F. What do you consider “significant”. Would the Aim-7E-2 vs Aim-120s?
The FGR2, FG1 an F4JUNK are DOA in ARB currently. Tornado F3 is significantly better in every single respect and its about time Gaijin stops pretending that all 3 are 100% identical to the US versions which outperform them consistantly
When a US Premium has a better K/D and K/S than a British TT jet, you know that something is wrong with it in its current state
4 Likes
I don’t think they’re equal in performance. I think I said as much. Or at least I hope I did. But the performance difference isn’t as much a problem with how ARB is currently played. The lower range doesn’t mean much when the vast majority of sparrow launches occur within 10km of the target, if not less. Anything more, and anyone with reasonable experience could dodge or multipath it.
Honestly, the issue is that in current air battles, most of the issues you have with the FG.1 and FGR.2 just aren’t there for the average player. HMD or not doesn’t matter when everyone is headon-ing at Mach “I don’t care if I live”.15 while effectively kissing squirrels at the treetops. Turning performance stops mattering when missiles start doing circus tricks to hit you. For most people playing, the British Phantoms are good enough.
(Not that this matters either, but all relavent F-4s are in the same class. The Tornado GR.4 and F-15 is like comparing apples to celery.)
1 Like
So all this boils down to is that you want to use the Phantom for something that it is bad at in-game
If someone jousts with me and they launch a Sparrow at 16km instead of as late as possible, why would I keep jousting with them?
The extra range of the AIM-7F is useless when the optimal launch window is between 3 and 8km
That’s not even true lmao, the British TT Phantoms have better K/Ds than the US F-4J and F-4S
the planes arent the reason why.
2 Likes
That’s true, but it also is factually false to claim that the US ones have better K/Ds
Mode: Air RB
Vehicle: Westland Welkin
Recommendation: BR 4.7 (keep BR but give it an interceptor spawn)
Reasoning:
British twin engine day fighters have as only nation in wt an unfair advantage vs all other twin engine fighters at Rank III or higher as those have either an interceptor or an strike aircraft air spawn at 1km - but Britain has somehow 6 (!!!) twin engine day fighters with a 2 km air spawn.
This spawn advantage makes them on average way more effective than other “heavy fighters”.
Most people don’t know that currently just these 6 British twin engine day fighters have an Air Superiority fighter role and an air spawn at 2 km altitude:
- Westland Welkin at BR 4.7
- Whirlwind + premium Whirlwind at BR 3.7
- Hornet Mk I (premium) + Hornet Mk III at BR 6.0
- Mosquito F.Mk. II (Norway) at BR 3.7
Across all other TTs the 1 km higher (compared to interceptor spawn) air superiority fighter spawn aircraft are either night fighters (Do 217s, Mosquito NF Mk II / J 30 and 2 P-61s) or 2 low BR 2.3 Potez aircraft (630/633) accompanied by the BR 1.7 (all Air RB) Do 17 Z-1.
Air Defence fighter | Game roles | War Thunder Wiki
There is zero necessity for a special rule for British twin engine fighters.
1 Like