Panzer IV J and H should be a 4.7 or 5.0 tank

That “Way” is doing a lot of heavy lifting for more explosive filler and 12mm more pen. Anything the M10s gun can go through, the long 75 can go through too.

The arbitrary role the game assigns them matters a whole lot less than how they function in battle. Both are dedicated snipers, using their powerful guns to engage at long range where their armor doesn’t matter. The difference is, the F2 has a turret drive, which not only means it’s better at range because it can cover a wider field of fire easier, but it also gives it the flexibility to push in and play at closer ranges if that’s what’s needed.

This is correct, however the Panzer 4s are a cleaner comparison since they are literally the same kind of tank in the same kind of role, but better.

There absolutely is a comparison because of the role they fill. The Na-To gives up literally all other attributes in order to have a strong gun. It’s slow, unarmored, huge, highly vulnerable to CAS, with no turret, just so that it has a strong gun. Meanwhile, a gun with very similar capabilities is available on the Panzer IVs, who don’t give up anywhere close to the same amount.

You’re really upselling a couple mm of difference in penetration when, again, almost anything a Na-To can go through, a Panzer IV could have as well.

The explosive filler is a nice to have advantage, but it’s hardly crippling to the Panzer IV. Good shots will still oneshot, ammo will always cook off if you hit it, and turret shots will consistently cripple the tank you’re fighting. It’s far from a solid shot level disadvantage.

The Na-To is noticably slower than the M10, at 12 hp/t to 13.4. At best, it’s reverse speed is merely average, rather than poor as on the M10. All for the low low price of any armor that’s strong enough to resist a .50 cal. And size. And a .50 cal. And a turret.

Until you put that M4 into a medium range engagement against a T-34 who knows what’s he’s doing, at which point you cannot really win. The M4’s gun is not consistent against armored targets at medium ranges, while it’s armor is not difficult to get through either.

Meanwhile, a Panzer IV in that situation is laughing, because it punched right through that T-34 at medium range, a range at which it’s small profile and volumetric hellhole of a hull can and will bounce the return shot.

Yes, the M4’s advantages are more universally applicable in the state of the game today. In a close quarters fight, it and most other mediums have substantial advantages over the Panzer IV. But if you put the Panzer IV into a situtation where it can leverage it’s strengths and cover it’s weaknesses, it’s just as good or better than all other 3.3s.

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A less and less viable option with the evolution of maps towards brawling, and the map rotation being skewed towards CQC. You have to brawl in it if you want your teams to get caps and wins. It’s WT. Vehicles with lots of different playstyles exist, but if you want to win, you know what you must do.

M4A1 76 sits at 5.0 and its infinetively better by most metrics.

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Feelings arent argument nor evidence, they must make way for hard data.

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The maximum you can put the Pz IV H would be 4.0 4.3, above that it would destroy the tank completely, the mobility is not good, 30km/h on average, medium armor at 3.7, imagine in higher BRs, the only thing that saves it is its cannon

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The mobility is fine and even if it has no armor it has good gun handling and insane fire power that dont belong below 4.3

On a side note, you think M-51 deserves its new BR of 6.3? After all it has good gun handling and insane firepower.

No
It doesnt have good gun handling the gun wobble like crazy and vertical stearing isnt great either
Only horizontaly its good
Also its not as good in fire power as well its just alot of pen but no post pen damage and very bad velocity so hard to aim
I would take a panther or tiger gun insted the m51 105 on any day

Honestly m51 are free kills idk why ppl complain about it

I think best highest br for PZ IV H and J version should be 4.7 in GRB and let it in 4.3 for AB.

There’s zero reason for the J to be that high, with it’s poor gun handling.

As for the H, well, 4.7 is where the Chi-Tos are now, which are commonly compared to the Panzer IVs, and not unfairly. They are generally better than them, thanks to the generous filler on the rounds while being broadly similar to them in other respects, though nowhere near to the extent of a 1.0 BR gap.

But putting any of them up there is a step too far. I’m perfectly happy with the H at 4.3, but that depends on how well it’s armor holds up at longer ranges at that BR. There really aren’t many 4.3s left to compare it to, the Jadgpanzer IV being the only significant one, and at the cost of a turret it is substantially better armored and lower profile.

We need another German (premium) tank to fill the stop cap in 4.7.

Conciddering that there is only like 1 tank at 4.7 for germany, yeah. Something fancy like a Vk tank.

Look, i purposelly asked about M-51 because in many ways it is similiar to Pzr IV H - ie. being a glass cannon.

M4A1
M51
Pzr IVH

M-51 gun handling is arguably better than that of Pzr IV H. So why do you claim Pzr IV H has good gun handling but M-51 doesnt?

You think M-51 doesnt deserve higher BR because all it has is pen but at the same time you think Pzr IV H doesnt belong below 4.3 despite all it has is “insane firepower”.

Its tad bit hypocritical.

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No, not really, but okay. Yes, the front armor is sloped, but everything, including the Pz IV J can punch out in one shot, it’s just who gets off the first shot.

Your only point you make is ‘yes’ and ‘no’ give actual reasoning and examples and I show some semblance of respect to you.

and what do you want to say with this? That unlike the M4A1 76mm, Pzr IV H cant be punched out in one shot, and thus it would be fine at 5.0?

You have a lower silhouette in the Pz IV J/H, you have almost identical survivability, identical firepower, and very close to similar mobility, the Sherman only beats it by the stabilizer.

I played the Pz IV J/H at 5.7, and it was just fine against those tanks if you knew your positioning and took the first shot. It should have no issue a 4.7 for sure, and 5.0 is probably a good idea to at least test. Maybe I just haven’t thought of all the 6.0 tanks yet, but it really should be alright.

Bro stop yapping. The H has little to no armor. That’s why it’s 4.3
IMG_5905

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by some 30cm give or take. not enough to warrant a functional difference.

if we exclude:

then sure, they have identical protection /s

if we exclude:

  • much better horizontal turret traverse rate which helps with gun laying (difference of 8°/s if both are spaded. My M4A1 (76) W with Expert crew currently sits at 16.8°/s, my Pzr IV H with expert crew at 11.2°/s)
  • better muzzle velocity (770m/s for PzrIVH and 792m/s for M4A1 (76) W)
  • almost 4x times more explosive filler in M62 shell (17g for PzrIVH vs 65g for M4A1 (76) W).
  • commander .50cal

then sure, they have identical firepower /s

I highly doubt that you were doing fine with Pzr IV H/J at 5.7 given the fact that you sit at 0.67 K/D with H and you havent even played J.

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.67 isn’t even the worse; let alone when I was unskilled at the game, so, yeah. But 4.7 would be good with me for it to go back to.

I’m not quite sure what’s going on here, but are we really trying to sell the idea that a tank which isn’t even close to being the best at it’s BR of 3.7 somehow deserves to go to 5.0?

That’s the equivalent of saying the M4A3 (76) W should be 7.0.

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