Pantsir is missile-limited, it physically cannot kill good CAS players.
The MISSILE cannot do it.
Missiles aren’t players.
No matter how skilled a player is, they cannot control how well the missile performs.
That goes for you as well @simbadumba
Missile being limited is out of player’s control.
If the F-22 fired an AIM-7D at me, it’d miss.
Missile-limited in comparison to what?
Again, your ignorance is showing. We are comparing whole battlefield effect, not an 1v1 between two machines. Ground battles consist of a large amount of players and your argument is only valid in a 1v1 situation which is not the structure of ground battles for around 99% of the time. Especially between these two specific weapon systems.
The battlefield effectiveness of your system is not based on 1v1 effectiveness between a jet and a SPAA.
Here is a photo of me playing right now, i can’t defend my team from getting killed by cas because i don’t have the guns that a pantsir has, therefore our allies are getting killed and our team is being disadvantanged solely because of that.
To pretend like these situations don’t occur on the battlefield is another type of ignorance that you are employing
Also, i have been engaging missiles during roland nerf where you could barely engage a straight flying a-10 at 5km. The pantsir absolutely has the capacity to engage hostile air to ground missiles.
Can you stop ignoring the whole battlefield effect and the way war thunder calculates battle rating? Your argument is not even remotely valid outside of custom battles. It is very often in these matches when jets fly low around the battlefield, because they can against flarakrads. You don’t see that much in pantsirs solely due to the scare effect of your guns. They know they can’t use this strategy, therefore you don’t see it much.
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Apply to other SPAA
for Pantsir? it’s skills issue they still have radar that can detect and intercept bomb and missile the luxury that other don’t have if they can’t those luxury of that 2012 SPAA system to their advantage then Russian mains have big skills issue and there is no such thing as skilled pantsir users when playing Russia never use it at the begin with
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SPAA in random battles is 1v1 almost exclusively.
You’re not typing to your team every 10 seconds on where enemy jets are as a SPAA player. No one is.
SPAA hasn’t been a threat to competent CAS players since Pantsir’s introduction because they gave us CCIP for guided bombs.
Pantsir wouldn’t be able to kill that jet either.
I’m talking about the whole battlefield this entire time.
No one’s ignoring it, you’re ignoring Pantsir’s flaws cause you’re embellishing it.
@ARK_BOI
You couldn’t kill me using Pantsir either.
Not a single person in this thread can kill good CAS players using Pantsir, cause its missile performance limited.
You’re right i can’t because i stop playing Russia ages ago and i’m not gonna lower myself to play Russia again.
You’re seeing this from the scope of sole engagement. SPAA effect on battlefield is way more than just you and a hostile jet scrambling together, like i have said. I always took into account the pantsir’s flaw of not being able to kill jets if they are flying mach 1 perpindicular. I never claimed that it can do that, nor does it need to nor is it always the capability of other systems either. Like i said, 1v1 capability against a single jet does not define your whole system’s performance on a specific battle rating.
Cause that’s what being a SPAA player is about, it’s you vs a jet, sometimes more.
That’s it.
When you’re a SPAA player that’s your only goal: Kill birds.
And a jet’s goal is to play competently to not die to you, and maybe kill you when they run out of tanks to kill.
Like in the video I linked earlier.
Here it is again: https://youtu.be/WhCGs7O_v3A?t=238
I am not saying any other system is good, I’m saying that Pantsir is in the same boat as every other SPAA that isn’t TOR-M1.
Every Pantsir player I’ve faced, the hundred or so, none could do anything to deal with me cause I learned in custom battles how to defeat Pantsir and spread that information to War Thunder Discords to make CAS more OP.
And every death in my Pantsir is a player that figured out my method of preventing death from Pantsirs, and dealt with me correctly.
There is nothing Pantsir can do against good CAS players, and I learned this exclusively from the perspective of my CAS gameplay.
Tornado IDS, F-16, Mirage 2000… even Harrier GR7 even though I only spawned it in 2 ground RB matches in the last half year.
Thats your ignorance. I just told you a few replies earlier the whole effect of spaa on the battlefield. You are seeing spaa’s only from a limited point of view, a point of view that only affirms you. You ignore the larger point of view that disproves your argument. This is exactly what i said, confirmation bias.
Not only is the jet’s goal to try and kill hostile jets, tanks, helicopters, you and ground vehicles but they also indeed have a role of trying to survive, which you hamper because you can limit their engagements whereas flarakrads can’t effectively limit hostile engagements
Tor m1 has no self defense capabilities against vehicles, it’s missiles are not very workable at close range, the mobility is mediocre, it does not have guns which hamper it against anything spinning around the battlefield which is something that any jet can do, it is near useless against helicopters that are coming from behind the trees, especially at close range
While tor m1 has quite strong missiles at range, the system’s downsides account for that, unlike on pantsir.
You can’t always kill every jet you face but you can assist your friendly jets at killing it and you can shoot down the weapons that the cas plane uses with your own missiles and guns.
You effectively bog down the effectiveness of such cas system while a flarakrad can’t
Again, saying that there is nothing a pantsir can do is either lack of skill and lack of understanding of the capabilities of your system or ignorance.
And since you also have made claims that are not true, i think the conversation can end here. There is no point arguing when you deny something of being possible when it is possible.
It is a waste of time to argue with someone who is being biased and ignorant in their arguments as they are not debating, they are just defending their opinion in any way possible.
And lets not forget that ito90m’s official maximum effective engagement altitude is only 6km whereas pantsir has one of 10km which even further limits the bvr capabilities of jets and high altitude attacks as you have to climb to an altitude where air is thin, maneuvering is not effective and missiles of jets are highly effective, just to drop a weapon that can be engaged.
Dude, tanks aren’t gonna kill my CAS.
Only SPAA and other aircraft can.
And as a SPAA tanks aren’t gonna kill SPAA, only CAS will [if they stay in spawn like they should].
And no, SPAA cannot help friendly jets.
SPAA is ineffective in applying relevant pressure to jets.
I only need to remember my European Province game where I had over 20, yes 20, Pantsir launches at my F-16 with 3 brrts, and I flew over the battlefield well over 10 times from 5km down to 100 meters, as close as 2km away from many Pantsirs.
I was going mach 1 the entire time, their turret drives couldn’t keep up, that’s how fast I was going.
I have years of experience and no bias.
The fact you claim CAS players don’t know the capabilities of CAS when I’m telling you how OP CAS is, is genuinely hilarious.
Ignorance.
(and again, anedoctal evidence over formal facts and statistics of weapon systems as part of confirmation bias)
No point arguing. You even proved my point of the spaa applying relevant pressure by implying that jets only fly laterally around you and saying that the guns are useless. That means that the hostile jets are effectively pressured to avoid your guns. And your missiles, since they are always flying laterally.
Science isn’t anecdotal.
I’m not even painting a narrative, I’m just stating reality.
You have no experience defeating Pantsirs, or playing Pantsir I bet, so you have no evidence to support your own argument.
Gaijin: I see no problem here.
Honestly CAS being OP for this entire year, undefeated by SPAA, is getting old.
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Ad hominem attack, a logical fallacy. Acting like i need to play a pantsir to know it’s capabilities. Acting like you understand the capabilities of a system only because you played this. Easy way to prove it wrong, You said that you can’t shoot down missiles yet this is possible. This makes your attack completely useless, debate is based on information, facts, not wether you have played something or not. You are not automatically an expert at understanding the effects of spaa on battleground because you played 20 matches in a pantsir.
You’re trying to attack me as a person instead of addressing my argument, because you can’t debate against it. You don’t want to address it. You have refused to address so much and decided to ignore/twist another large portion of my arguments, all here listed below:
You completely ignored my mentions of pantsir’s capability of engaging against helicopters and their weapons and lack of such capability on the flarakrad. You did not try to debate it, you did not address it, you ignored it.
You completely ignored the disadvantanges of having only 2 missiles to launch at a time of flarakrad, you did not make an counter argument against this, you did not address it as a legitimate downside, nothing.
You ignored the capability of otherwise having a large amount of ready to launch missiles, you did not make any counter arguments, you did not address it nor did you say anything else about it.
You ignored self defense capabilities of the pantsir and tried to wet down the guns as being completely useless due to only -4 depression against ground vehicles, yet they can be useful when you have advantange of elevation (maps with hills, etc.). You ignored the pantsirs capability to deal with any jet circling low around the battlefield inside the minimum missile engagement zone and ignored the fact that flarakrad is not able to engage such targets to defend the team while pantsir can.
You dismissed the rwr as any sort of useful tool, yet other players can use this to their advantange when playing against flarakrads while they can’t use rwr to get advantange against pantsir, therefore pantsir has an advantange in this sector too.
You ignored the fact of pantsir having superior radar and superior engagement distance and you dismissed the scare effect while also proving it. You also ignored the altitude advantance of pantsir which would highly limit any use of GBU’s at altitude as jets would have to climb to a zone where they are at a huge disadvantange.
You wrongly claimed that the pantsir can’t shoot air to ground munitions. This is completely false.
In your arguments, you only take into account what confirms your view, you never address anything that i mentioned that would prove you otherwise.
There were also large number of your other biases at play, logical fallacies and what not. This will be my last message for this conversation. It is not productive due to your ignorance and confirmation bias of only addressing anything that confirms your views.
No, it’s an attack on your lack of sources to back up your argument.
I have hundreds of missiles launched at me as source material.
I have videos by Hunter & other CCs memeing on Pantsir.
You have nothing.
I exclusively attacked your argument, and now that I attack your lack of sources you try to derail & falsely accuse me once again.
What are you talking about? I never ignored that, in-fact that’s one of the reasons FlaRakRad is useless.
Radars can’t kill people, and RWR warning means nothing if you always act as if you’re launched on to begin with.
I have no biased, I posted no fallacies, I attacked no one.
And if I had “confirmation bias” I’d be ignoring all the information I have been saying this entire time since my initial hypothesis many months ago was “Pantsir will finally defeat CAS.” that hypothesis of mine is still wrong.
Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity (“I’m just trying to have a debate”), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter. It may take the form of “incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate”
The sealioner feigns ignorance and politeness while making relentless demands for answers and evidence (while often ignoring or sidestepping any evidence the target has already presented), under the guise of “just trying to have a debate”
Rhetorically, sealioning fuses persistent questioning—often about basic information, information easily found elsewhere, or unrelated or tangential points—with a loudly-insisted-upon commitment to reasonable debate. It disguises itself as a sincere attempt to learn and communicate. Sealioning thus works both to exhaust a target’s patience, attention, and communicative effort, and to portray the target as unreasonable. While the questions of the “sea lion” may seem innocent, they’re intended maliciously
This is false.
Anyway, source for everything: https://wiki.warthunder.com/Pantsir-S1
https://wiki.warthunder.com/95Ya6
We can simply look at information, capabilities and talk about that information and capabilities. Me not having a pantsir does not mean that i can’t talk about the capabilities of the pantsir, e.g., it having guns or ready to launch missiles or a better radar, etc.
You assumed you would be able to kill jets all you want because in your mind, that is the only job of spaa. To shoot at jets, to do nothing else.
Comparison was between pantsir and flarakrad, pantsir being a greatly better vehicle while flarakrad indeed is useless at the same br.
Also, if you compare our messaging, I address each part of your messages. You only addressed a single part out of the how many there exists.
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I asked for evidence once, maybe twice in this entire discussion with you.
I provided my evidence, and even offered to 1v1 your Pantsir or you 1v1 my Pantsir where I coach you to defeat Pantsir with a 100% success rate.
No ignorance was feigned by myself, I cannot speak for you.
Both FlaRakRad and Pantsir are useless against skilled players, I’ve been stating this for the entire thread.
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How come every fact tells me that the pantsir can engage missiles, and someone playing pantsir tells me that they can engage missiles BUT your personal invalid anedoctal evidence tells me that you can’t engage missiles
Because your evidence is anedoctal. You couldn’t engage missiles because of your skill issue. That is why your only evidence, anedoctal evidence, is not valid.
Battle rating is based on the effect of a vehicle on particular battle rating, you’re going to meet a large amount of players that you can kill in a pantsir, but can’t kill those players in a flarakrad which ends up with your teammates dying.
You found a screenshot of someone saying the same thing I did. Then you claim he has a skill issue.
Can =/= does every time.
I have no anecdotal evidence, only scientific evidence. You’re just making anti-science conjectures without evidence.
Any claims without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.