Sure, the armor won’t play like the other Panthers, but that is to be expected. The gun and mobility combination still makes it a 5.7 quality tank and the armor is good enough in a pinch. I think it warrants being .4 BR higher than the M36. The tank will probably trade 1 to 1 with things like the T-34-85. I don’t think it’s bad unless you want it to be as powerful as the other variants already are. 5.0 is definitely too low.
The gun is not much better. You will very frequently fail to OHK with the Panther which has only a tiny amount of HE filler, and the reload is near 10 seconds stock. The Tiger will nuke most things that it pens, and it will still pen sides or weakspots as well as the panther most of the time.
The opposite of this is true. The Panther is a really big tank with really weak side armour which means it’s only protected to the direct front. So if you move anywhere it’s hard to keep concealed and you have to be quite certain there is no one anywhere except your direct front.
The Tiger on the other hand is far more protected against unknown threats on an oblique angle. The UFP which is the weakspot is not that big and will be missed with incorrect ranging. You don’t need to be as careful with the Tiger to have its armour work.
You need to do barely anything to get the Tigers armour to work. All you need to do is tap a or d for half a second towards perceived threats. If you advance towards an enemy position you do so diagonally instead of straight on. It’s not that hard.
The fact that the Tiger can reverse is massive. If you miss a shot in the panther, or if there is another enemy, you simply cannot get away in time. In a Tiger you can simply reverse behind cover. Furthermore, the tiger is far more manoeuvrable in tight spaces, so it takes half the time to change position to peek from another side of a rock or building for example.
The 5.7 Jumbo is superior in a 1v1. It can easily snipe the Tiger or Panthers massive muzzle break to completely disable their ability to fight back while the German tanks need to completely stop to have a change of shooting the jumbos weak spots. German tanks are better at sniping while the Jumbo is better in CQC. The are equally good.
And no way should the VK or Panther D be 5.7. They have the slowest reaction time of virtually any medium tank in the game. Extremely slow turret traverse and track traverse. They require a niche playstyle to work effectively.
Not going to rehash the old points because we disagree and there’s no point.
The Jumbo is barely played because it takes a lot more skill to use than something like a Panther. Panther is point and click on basically everything except the Jumbo. The Jumbo can’t be moved up anymore because it would not be able to penetrate anything and its armor would be rendered completely useless. It already takes a lot of shots to disable and kill a lone panther or Tiger. Jumbos are annoying, but they aren’t a threat to a semi-coordinated team. Jumbo aside, there’s nothing else, and the Jumbo alone cannot fill a line-up. If German teams could only spawn one Tiger or Panther per person like the Jumbo, my own opinion would probably change.
It does not “take more skill”. They simply requires different playstyles. As you can see, jumbos easily win in a head-on match. Saying German tanks “take less skill” is just cope by US mains who like to conveniently ignore all the soft factors that make their tanks good.
Even in their own tier, to not even mention uptiers, Panthers are not “point-and-click” against the most common heavy tanks like jumbos and IS-1s, despite the gun good and armour penetration being the main selling point.
And discussions about line-up are a completely different topic. In any case, US spams so much CAS that it completely nullifies any supposed advantage of the German tanks.
Also “no one plays the jumbo”? Are you kidding? It’s the 5th most played heavy tank in the entire US lineup, followed by the Jumbo 76 in 3rd place and extremely powerful 6.7 T34/T29.
If France had a 4x 50 cal truck that’d be fine.
@Beeschurger
What? Tigers and Panthers are brawlers not snipers.
Panther v. Jumbo… Tiger H is inferior to the Jumbo at close range, obviously. But anecdotes like this are unhelpful. Full teams of jumbos are non-existent. I see full teams of Tigers and Panthers all the time, but never full teams of jumbos (I wonder why…). Regardless, they could move the Jumbo up to 6.0 because they moved everything else around it up.
Because the Panthers were the main tanks of the later German Wehrmacht while the Jumbo was always a niche tank in the US Army, and for the US side likes to spam light tanks and then CAS.
The Tiger maybe, but the panther is much more of a sniper than a brawler.
Panthers arent nowhere near agile enough (NOT faster, agile) to brawl.
Tigers need to keep their distance to have their armor angled as effectively as possible.
Both get worse closer to enemy they get due to weakspots being more prominent enough.
The Panthers are more snipers/flankers. The Tigers are just multi-purpose crypto-medium tanks that act as the main brawling tank for the Germans for lack of a better option.
That is wierd, because thats all i use my 6.0 Panther for and it does really well due to a very stable gun plattform, and good traverse.
And this describes every tank ever. And in the case of the Panther it just means you as a panther get to leverage the excellent gun plattform
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Not saying you are making stuff up but anyone who has ever played panther knows that they indeed do not traverse well.
For mid to long range combat yes.
Panthers and Tigers get dunked on by stabilised shermans at close range.
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Hull traverse is fine and the turret traverse is rather decent on the 6.0 Panthers.
For all combat ranges. The Panther has an exceptionally stable gun plattform that makes it able to fire on the move just fine.
In the case of the Panther at 6.0 thats mostly a skill issue. Well at least the Panther A has an excuse to some degree. The other ones having near immunity against the Sherman 75.
Brawling is about reload more than anything, and armor second.
Agility has little to do with brawling.
Which is why the Tiger 2 and T26E5 are the best 6.7 brawlers in the game for example.
The Jumbo 75 is 5.7 precisely because they moved it up together with everything else around it in those BR ranges.
You’re asking for something that has already happened.
You ARE making stuff up.
On part of Panthers, yes.
You are contradicting yourself.
If agility has nothing to do with brawling, then by your own metric both panther and tigers are bad brawlers.
Short 88 has slower reload than Tiger I and its armor is objectively bad unless angled - and to angle precisely and fast enough, you need to have agility.
Moreso for panther which has strong armor only in the frontal aspect, side armor is objectively terrible and you NEED to angle your tank to face enemy with your strongest armor, again, something you do with AGILITY.
Short 88 reloads in 8.5 seconds without expert crew, that is fast.
Angling armor is exactly what you do in brawling which is why Tiger 1 is so good at it especially.
None of what you said has to do with agility, and all you did was prove there are no contradictions in my post.
T-44 has 8.5 seconds.
M26 has 8.6 seconds [it’s 6.7 due to its APCR though].
Just as two examples…
Well in game its exceptionally stable. No CA Lorraine, but close enough. And im offcourse just reciting my experience in using the Panther at 6.0.
This is offcourse in game, IRL firing on the move for basically any tank except at low speed in a stabilized sherman was out of the question.