Bullshit as usual
You have kd of three in the panther f stop crying.
That’s not a panther only problem
It struggled to pen CAS at its original BR, it was mostly used to pen Ground vehicles where it achieved its stats then it got moved and left a huge SPAA gap for France. Genius, then you come along and try and defend the debacle
lol Typical Wisla ,Gaijin’s Guardian lol
CCKW is 2.0, which is another bofors.
AMX-13 DCA was OP, I was one that said Gaijin was wrong for having it too low.
That and 4.3 wasn’t a lineup to begin with so it moving to 5.0 changed nothing for 99% of players.
So you are the fool who ruined the SPAA situation for France and gave them even less than they had? Well done .People like you who are destroying line ups people are trying to make.
So what takes the DCA place at 4BR now it has moved the slow Bofors to chase fast props ?
AMX-13 DCA easily dumpsters most tanks with some barrel, tracks and flanking.
Something it has the pen, speed, fire rate and damage to do.
And with its fast turret rotation speed and decent rof, its a nice spaa once you get used to the consistent decent velocity of the 40mm bofors.
Edit:
Certainly not a beginner friendly spaa, but all spaa doesn’t need to be.
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It does ,its get BR jacked and Frances loses it SPAA at that BR Region .BS!
We can all hope france gets a 20mm daka spaa to fill that gap, but i dont think that gap justifies the DCA being at the BR it was.
they used to be 5.7br tops
You have a point but my point is that the DCA was OP becuse of its land based ating not its air based and removing the AP would have sorted the issue and still allowed France a SPAA at 4BR
alternatively they could have made two versions one with SP and one without.
They could do the same with the Italian SPAA M42 and give it more ammo.
Instead they kneejerk shift things to appease the stat Gog and make more problems than they solve.
Look at the UK comet, went up, nobody played it went back down … why ? really?
i dont think its very kneejerk. Changes happen to vehicles that make them way better and it takes a lot of time before they move BR wise.
Iirc the Tigers and Panthers shifting took quite some time after they shifted up some vehicles in the BR range above them.
certainly a solution, but its a solution they should apply across the board if they do, and that would create a massive shuffle of spaa BRs.
Hot take: Both Panthers and Tigers were fine at 5.7.
Alas people tried to outsnipe them, which is literally the single niche they are good at, and made surprised pikachu face when they lost.
What can be said other than “good grief”.
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The Panther has a much better gun. Both the Tiger and the Panther will one-shot things easily, but the Panther’s additional penetration is really helpful against Russian and American tanks at 6.0 and up. The Tiger’s lack of penetration makes it harder to up-tier.
Maybe? Personally I think the Panther is more consistent. The Tiger E’s armor can be very strong if angled effectively, but you have more limited mobility as you can’t move without creating exploitable weaknesses. For the average player, the Panther’s armor is more likely to save you and is more versatile for moving around the battlefield. Turret weaknesses especially can be mitigated by moving around.
This isn’t saying much. As I previously stated, the Tiger has a harder time taking advantage of its speed than the Panther due to its armor layout; it’s armor is all flat. I am not sure how to evaluate “agility” either. Unlike on the Panther, the Tiger requires a lot of adjusting to get your armor to work the way you want it to. Unlike the Tiger, the Panther doesn’t need a strong traverse/reverse speed to perform well or to get its armor to work optimally. Whatever the difference is in traverse/reverse speeds, it is negligible to differentiate their overall effectiveness. You should not be playing peekaboo with either of these vehicles, but if you have to go around a corner, I’d rather be in a Panther using my UFP.
I don’t think this is a minor advantage, especially in urban scenarios.
I don’t think the Tiger can be called “agile” when you can barely move without compromising its armor.
Perhaps the E variant might be more survivable in hull-down scenarios, but as someone who loves to play everything around 4.7-6.0, I would much rather be dealing with a Tiger than a Panther.
Strongly disagree. American and Russian counterparts at 5.7 are nowhere near as capable. I think the A/G variants of the Panther are better than the Tiger E because of the gun and more versatile armor. There’s even an argument for moving the VK and Panther D to 5.7.
I don’t see the VK being worth 5.7. Yes, it is more mobile than the Panther D, but still has horrendous turret traverse and poor reverse. And now the armor is nowhere near as reliable, cannons like 17 pounder with Shot Mk.8 APCBC and Russian 85 mm with BR-365 APHEBC simply go right through the upper glacis at pretty much all meaningful combat ranges, and even the US 76 mm with M62 APCBC will go through at close ranges.
Even the turret is weaker compared to the other Panthers. Not only is the turret front weaker (80 mm instead of 100 - 120 mm), the mantlet and turret front don’t overlap nearly as much, making it far easier to penetrate, on top of not having the spall shield behind the mantlet unlike the other Panthers.
Sure, the armor won’t play like the other Panthers, but that is to be expected. The gun and mobility combination still makes it a 5.7 quality tank and the armor is good enough in a pinch. I think it warrants being .4 BR higher than the M36. The tank will probably trade 1 to 1 with things like the T-34-85. I don’t think it’s bad unless you want it to be as powerful as the other variants already are. 5.0 is definitely too low.
The gun is not much better. You will very frequently fail to OHK with the Panther which has only a tiny amount of HE filler, and the reload is near 10 seconds stock. The Tiger will nuke most things that it pens, and it will still pen sides or weakspots as well as the panther most of the time.
The opposite of this is true. The Panther is a really big tank with really weak side armour which means it’s only protected to the direct front. So if you move anywhere it’s hard to keep concealed and you have to be quite certain there is no one anywhere except your direct front.
The Tiger on the other hand is far more protected against unknown threats on an oblique angle. The UFP which is the weakspot is not that big and will be missed with incorrect ranging. You don’t need to be as careful with the Tiger to have its armour work.
You need to do barely anything to get the Tigers armour to work. All you need to do is tap a or d for half a second towards perceived threats. If you advance towards an enemy position you do so diagonally instead of straight on. It’s not that hard.
The fact that the Tiger can reverse is massive. If you miss a shot in the panther, or if there is another enemy, you simply cannot get away in time. In a Tiger you can simply reverse behind cover. Furthermore, the tiger is far more manoeuvrable in tight spaces, so it takes half the time to change position to peek from another side of a rock or building for example.
The 5.7 Jumbo is superior in a 1v1. It can easily snipe the Tiger or Panthers massive muzzle break to completely disable their ability to fight back while the German tanks need to completely stop to have a change of shooting the jumbos weak spots. German tanks are better at sniping while the Jumbo is better in CQC. The are equally good.
And no way should the VK or Panther D be 5.7. They have the slowest reaction time of virtually any medium tank in the game. Extremely slow turret traverse and track traverse. They require a niche playstyle to work effectively.
Not going to rehash the old points because we disagree and there’s no point.
The Jumbo is barely played because it takes a lot more skill to use than something like a Panther. Panther is point and click on basically everything except the Jumbo. The Jumbo can’t be moved up anymore because it would not be able to penetrate anything and its armor would be rendered completely useless. It already takes a lot of shots to disable and kill a lone panther or Tiger. Jumbos are annoying, but they aren’t a threat to a semi-coordinated team. Jumbo aside, there’s nothing else, and the Jumbo alone cannot fill a line-up. If German teams could only spawn one Tiger or Panther per person like the Jumbo, my own opinion would probably change.
It does not “take more skill”. They simply requires different playstyles. As you can see, jumbos easily win in a head-on match. Saying German tanks “take less skill” is just cope by US mains who like to conveniently ignore all the soft factors that make their tanks good.
Even in their own tier, to not even mention uptiers, Panthers are not “point-and-click” against the most common heavy tanks like jumbos and IS-1s, despite the gun good and armour penetration being the main selling point.
And discussions about line-up are a completely different topic. In any case, US spams so much CAS that it completely nullifies any supposed advantage of the German tanks.