Oops, it's all T-54! (let's give these old timers some love, and uhhh change the 7.0, 7.3, 7.7 and 8.0 soviet line ups while at it)

[ITZ_VICTOR]

Hello ladies and gents

Tonight i’m here to propose a talk about our good old T-54 one of the most mass produced tanks ever.

Right now in War Thunder we see 3 main variants of the T-54, all of them the early production versions before the main T-54A arrived in 1955 and later the main modernization in the T-54B in 1957.

(T-54Bs on the move)

I want to talk about mainly about where our current T-54s sit at in war thunder, which is kind of a tough spot the '47 sits at 7.7 with only APCR as it’s best pen shell, and it can face tanks with full stabilization and apfsds like the M60A1 RISE (P) (Yikes!), the 49 and 51 are technically the same in-game in all but the the overhang at the rear for the '49, saw somewhere that the '51 irl has a TDA smoke generating system, which might mean it has ESS? Not sure tho, anyway they both sit at 8.0 whilst being unstabilized they can face the Leo a1a1 m60a3 tts and xm803 which all have stabilized guns with rangefinders and apfsds (Bruh!).

(Before i propose the changes to the BRs of the current T-54s i want to talk about the current BR of 3 heavies in particular and how lowering their BRs would create good and fun line ups to play, starting up with the Is-3, it should head to 7.0 making a new line up together with the T-44/100 and the ZSU-57-2, at a full uptier in 8.3 it’s armour is useless and so is it’s gun, the Is-4M faces the same issue but at a worse br in 7.7, it’s appropriate it goes down to 7.3, and finally the T-10M what do i have to say? It’s a really good tank at a bad BR, constantly facing APFSDS and Laser Rangefinders with a long ass reload and with a gun that can’t handle those 9.3 threats, 8.0 would pair nicely with the addition of the T-54A which i’ll explain down below)

I want to propose a change to their BRs and the addition of the T-54A or T-54B (maybe both?)

The T-54 '47 should go down to 7.3 (while were at it, move the Is-3 to 7.0 so it’s a good line up with the T-44/100, move the Is-4 to 7.3 so it’s a good pair with the T-54 '47), it’s not that good of a medium tank to warrant 7.7 due to it’s main thing being 20mm more of UFP armor than it’s 2 other brothers which is useless against HEAT ammo that is common at 8.3 and 8.7 BR, it should be an introduction to the early cold war medium tank designs that still thought of WW2 doctrine and tech making a good line up with the Is-4M at a lowered br in 7.3.

The T-54 '49 and '51 should go down to 7.7, being kind of absolute PEAK of what the WW2 medium tank design could possibly achive marking the end of an era and starting the introduction of new strategies for the player at the intermediary BR of the 7.7-8.7 bracket, pairing it together with the Is-6 or T-10A if you’re rich or played it’s event.

Now i want to suggest the addition of the T-55A and T-55B.

The T-54A saw as the first real modernization of the T-54 to the status of an main battle tank, as it received the vertical STP-1 “Gorizont” gun stabilizer and a new gun being the D-10TG with a massive fume extractor on the end instead of the small counterweight. We already technically have it in war thunder, being the Type 59 in the chinese tech tree. 8.0 would be the perfect BR for it pairing it up with the lowered BR’d T-10M and the shilka, it would make it a competitive and fun line-up.

The T-54B was the second modernization, substituting the D-10TG with the D-10T2S coupled with an STP-2 “Tsyklon” 2-plane stabilizer (“Cyclone”) on vertical and horizontal planes, allowing it to use more modern ammo like the 3BM25 we see on the T-55A in-game, this would be more of a filler for the current empty 8.3 line up for the soviets, and as this version of the T-54 was…

MASSIVELY

(sorry it’s midnight after a long work day i couldn’t help myself)

Sold to the DDR it would be a good addition to the german TT to complement the M48A2 G A2 and the Gepard.

Alright this marks the end of this topic, give your opinions if these BR changes + new tanks would be a good changes/additions to the game, if your counter argument is “Ah but X, Y, Z tank is at the same BR as these tank currently are and they peform just as them! Shouldn’t they go down too?1!? Soviet Bias!” I’m fine with those tanks also receiving a br reduction, i mainly want a revival of the 7.0-8.0 br range so any changes similar to those i suggested (which i only suggested after a long time playing those tanks) are welcome by me, anyway good night and see you all in battle!

[Cloudzy26160]

+1 for missing T-54s! it’s odd that the T-54A&B are missing from the Russian tree, especially as the Chinese produced variants are in game at BR 8.0 already

[SoyBeanInhaler]

Would be impossible to balance, look at the BRs really quick between T-54 and T-55A.

Also TO-55A

[MeanBROSofD72805]

@SoyBeanInhaler

Would be impossible to balance, look at the BRs really quick between T-54 and T-55A.

What?

[SoyBeanInhaler]

Look at the BRs and the difference in capability

[MeanBROSofD72805]

T-54B would be mostly the same as T-55 with a worse engine, and T-54A is literally the same as Type 59.
its not the hard to think about how to balance, even without decompression.

[Fourche7]

Gajin’s tendency to tack-on asynchronous ammunition to vehicles has created a lot of unusual BR placements, which I’d argue is most visible in the early CW era. This trend has always been odd to me since there is usually some un-added later variant these late rounds could have been restricted to so that earlier vehicles can go to a more appropriate tier.

Most of your proposal could be implemented pretty soundly under this logic, just reworking ammo load-outs a bit in accordance with reality. HEAT-FS should be available to the T-54A at 8.0 at the earliest. Some earlier T-10s, like the IS-5, T-10, T-10B, and Object 265 would be nice compliments to some of the T-54s in line-ups.

[poopooo]

I said a while ago that the T-54s had to be revised by limiting their ammunition, giving the '47 only AP, the '49 APBC, the '51 APCBC, adding the T-54A with the previous bullets plus HEAT-FS, and rebalancing them.

[An_Pigeon]

Thr 3bm8 was never mounted on the t54?

[poopooo]

The 3BM8 is later than the T-55. I suppose the T-54s in service at that time would have carried that ammunition, but of course, it would be at a time when the T-54s were already being replaced by the T-55s.

[An_Pigeon]

Genuinely didnt know it was from 67 ish ?!

I had a look there man, wow.
Though they use rounds for balancing same as chieftain l15a5 doesn’t exist and on the shir 2 has identical oen

[poopooo]

It must be acknowledged that the Soviets struggled to make progress with 100mm ammunition. I believe the APCBC alone was from around 1951.
It should also be noted that, for example, the 3BM25 100mm gun in the game is incorrect, as it should have a penetration at 60° that is somewhat higher than what is shown in the game.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/1764vrf/incorrect_performance_of_3bm21_and_3bm25/?tl=es-419

[poopooo]

@An_Pigeon

Though they use rounds for balancing same as chieftain l15a5 doesn’t exist and on the shir 2 has identical oen

I’m still waiting for them to make a change with the British. Add the Centurion Mk5/2 with L28A1 ammunition, and then correct the Centurion Mk10’s turret armor and give it L52A1 ammunition.

[Herojure24]

@ITZ_VICTOR

Not sure tho, anyway they both sit at 8.0 whilst being unstabilized

Most 8.0 tanks are in this boat being unstsbilsed and all. They are not alone. And at least they have some armour. Look at the leopards or amx 30 at 8.0 for example

[SoupFella]

i’ve had some experience with 7.3-8.0 USSR so imma put my two cents in for this topic

@ITZ_VICTOR

kind of a tough spot the '47 sits at 7.7 with only APCR as it’s best pen shell, and it can face tanks with full stabilization and apfsds like the M60A1 RISE (P) (Yikes!)

ok… let’s see what the T-54 '47 faces in uptiers:

Spoiler

mind you, any successful penetration in these spots guarantees a oneshot kill
now what will face it in uptiers if it was lowered to 6.3:

Spoiler

with the exception of the IS-2, king tiger and certain british & french tanks, literally nothing can critically damage the '47 in a 1 on 1 engagement, let alone penetrate it reliably OR 1 shot it, whereas you have vastly superior armor, mobility and firepower compared to them all

@ITZ_VICTOR

Is-3, it should head to 7.0… at a full uptier in 8.3 it’s armour is useless and so is it’s gun, the Is-4M faces the same issue but at a worse br in 7.7, it’s appropriate it goes down to 7.3, and finally the T-10M…

this is nothing new, literally every heavy tank in the game suffers from this
and to suggest the IS-4M’s armor is useless is with all due respect completely bogus… its side armor is incredibly strong and if you angle it you are practically impervious to 120mm APDS and 90mm HEATFS

IS-4M vs Chieftain 120mm APDS :

@ITZ_VICTOR

The T-54 '49 and '51 should go down to 7.7, being kind of absolute PEAK of what the WW2 medium tank design could possibly achive marking the end of an era and starting the introduction of new strategies for the player at the intermediary BR of the 7.7-8.7 bracket

“they should go down in BR because they look like late WW2 designs” is kind of a moot argument

@ITZ_VICTOR

Now i want to suggest the addition of the T-55A and T-55B

i totally agree with this, it’s only fair the USSR gets a stabilized T-54 just like China’s Type 59 & 69
worst part is USSR already has the premium TO-55 which is just a T-55A at 8.0 without APFSDS (arguably worse than the APDS it gets)
from this it’s evident that 8.X is very compressed and tanks like the M60, leo 1, T-54s, amx-30… are technically inferior to some tanks at the same BR
so if these were to be added i’d really like to see them at 8.3 but only if the 8.X bracket is decompressed

@ITZ_VICTOR

this would be more of a filler for the current empty 8.3 line up for the soviets

more variety is nice yeah but i wouldn’t call 8.3 USSR empty…

@ITZ_VICTOR

Sold to the DDR it would be a good addition to the german TT to complement the M48A2 G A2 and the Gepard

from a historical perspective absolutely and i would love to see the T-54AMZ which was unique to the GDR…
but if people ask for it to be added and it is added, only for people to then complain about copypaste (especially since Germany already has 21 Soviet vehicles)… yeah

@ITZ_VICTOR

if your counter argument is “Ah but X, Y, Z tank is at the same BR as these tank currently are and they peform just as them! Shouldn’t they go down too?1!? Soviet Bias!” I’m fine with those tanks also receiving a br reduction

it’s not soviet bias, just bad BR compression around that bracket
lowering their BRs is not the solution though as that would cause more problems than it would solve
decompression is the answer

overall i agree with your post on some points but the solutions you propose would only work if, again, the 7.X to 8.X BR wasn’t heavily compressed and full of discrepencies in terms of tank tech (T-54 vs Type 69, Maus vs Conqueror/T-10M, T95E1 vs Turm III…)

[An_Pigeon]

Yeah we’ll be waiting for a while i think dude

[Ckasaron]

I know of a couple simple tricks to ensure that dropping the T-54s as proposed could actually work.

Undo old nerfs to all the ammunition types which by and large should damn well kill them with ease.

APCR is lacking in some cases a lot of its armor penetration, and is also overburdened by RNG shell shattering plus pitiful postpen if it gets through without shattering. APDS has similarly pitiful postpen until you hit L7s. HESH has been…HESH… for years at this point, when it should be unequivocably nuking T-54s back to the hangar. HEAT and HEATFS also have postpen like needles, but unlike APCR at least they pen slopes!

Big HE overpressure is very wonky at best. But this above all else could serve as the ideal anti-heavy tank spam feature, if a limited version of Hull Break was brought back, but specifically for turrets. Turret rings are more fragile to damage than the game makes it out to be, and a sufficiently large impact to the turret face can quite literally rip the turrets off of tanks, rendering them dead, even if they wouldn’t conventionally “penetrate.”

And T-54s have rather weak turret rings, plus the same electric motors used on T-34-85s driving them. So they would be especially weak to large HE impacts.

“Turret Break” would function as a simple threshold value - if a single projectile carries sufficient energy upon impact, the turret ring breaks and the turret is ripped off, killing the tank. Generally-speaking the larger the turret ring, the more force would be required to break it. Technically even large high-velocity solid projectiles would do this too (coughM103coughcough).

[WalletWorrier]

Huge -1 for compression (Tiger E and Jumbo 76 fighting IS-3s and 6.3s getting thrown at T-54s is slightly suboptimal lmao. Hell the T-44-100 should be in a lineup with the IS-3… at 7.3). The only exception is I’d support the '49 losing ahistorical (1967) 3BM8 and dropping down to 7.7

However, big +1 for adding more T-54/55 variants especially the 54A which a certain handsome someone made a suggestion for

T-54A: Semi-stabilized Soviet

poll Overview The T-54A was an improved version of the T-54-III (aka T-54 1951) featuring a single-plane gyrospcopic stabilizer. It was by far the most-produced T-54 variant at over 16,000 examples when including Chinese, Polish, and Czechoslovak license-production, and was only exceeded by the T-55A in terms of production numbers for any tank variant ever. As such, it was widely used by over 50 countries including every member of the Warsaw Pact. The T-54A is still in service with several nati…

[poopooo]

That’s what I’ve been saying for a while now. Give the T-54s their realistic bullets and lower their Br a bit, and then add the T-54A with its realistic bullet (HEAT-FS), occupying a Br of 8.0.

Regarding the three T-54s, I would put all three at Br 7.7, with the 1947 model having more hull armor, worse turret armor, and only the AP round. The 1949 and 1951 models would have the APBC round. Then add the T-54A with the APCBC (1953) and the HEAT-FS round (1955).