No, not really:
Unless you’re talking about the hull, in which it would be the case, yes.
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M1A2 is only at 11.7 because of the Click-Bait. Gaijin decided to buff the Click-Bait and make it basically the same as an M1A2 so they can’t justifiably raise the BR (without selling a top tier premium)
And yet it does, to which you said it is fine that they’re both the same BR?
Maybe because you deal with them at <100m, to which the downwards angle makes it so that the upper UFP doesn’t automatically ricochet off of it, especially if the leopard is not angled.
Why take the armor from an angle? Why not from down the center of the tank (which is where you’re going to be shot from 90% of the time?)
Also I don’t have access to my PS5 rn so it’s a genuine question
Where did I said M1s shouldn’t get up to 12.0 without M829A2 ?
I’d say I’ll have much more 500m+ shots than < 100m ones.
It’s just now how it works.
Past ~200m, the angle that your round hits the part of the tank you want to shoot at is parallel in all places.
This is because of trig and I think @SanguineSerpent and @Necrons31467 explained it a while back:
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Nowhere.
You stated that you think the M1A1 Clickbait should be the same BR as the Leopard 2A5, which I 100% agree.
Then you said that it shouldn’t have the same round as the 2A5 - thus implying that the M1A1 clickbait (at the moment) should not be the same BR as the 2A5 with it still having M829A2.
Well, that’s not entirely correct (I was being lazy).
If you do trig, your downwards angle against a tank in front of you at 10m is around 3 degrees, assuming you’re in an Abrams, and you are trying to shoot the upper UFP of the 2A4.
This is level:
This is 3 degrees above the tank (to compensate for the fact that your gun is above their hull):
As you can see, easy pen.
Now let’s say we go to 20m:
tan^-1(0.61m/20m) = 1.16 degrees above the tank:
Still possible, but becomes unreliable when they’re slightly angled:
And now let’s say we go to 50m:
tan^-1(0.61m/50m) = 0.7 degrees above the tank:
It’s effectively impossible.
So I meant to say you’ll have more 50+ meter shots than <50m shots.
I meant horizontally centered, not vertically
And it should be 12.0 regardless of the round. In fact A2 makes the vehicle even more powerful than it should be.
Same thing applies.
See how the lines becomes straight - almost parallel to one another?
If I continued to something like 200m or 1000m etc…you’d see that the angle that my gun has to aim for different points of a tank starts to not matter - both vertically and horizontally.
Thus, when you want to aim at something in protection analysis, and you have a target >50m or so, you’d want to aim your camera exactly in the same level (in both planes) as the part of the armour you want to hit.
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I don’t think so.
The worse survivability and armour in exchange for the better firepower makes sense.
Tell me, what does the M1A2 have over the 2A5 other than its firepower and, perhaps, the slightly better UFP?
It doesn’t have that annoying gun depression limit, can store more than 15 rounds safely and has two black holes in the front serving as external fuel tanks.
CB with M829A1 would be pretty balanced with 2A5 at 12.0, in fact it would be much more balanced than some other 12.0s when compared to 2A5, at both ends of the spectrum.
If you rely on being able to shoot to the sides of your tank that often, then that’s a problem.
Sure, but I don’t think you need any more than that to do well in most matches.
Most players I know just play aggressive, then rearm at a capture point.
If it’s a long range map, just take more ammo and hide your hull, like you should.
If you have to rely on the trollyness / RNG of the hull and fuel tanks to stay alive, then it’s not really a good tank imo.
And just don’t go for the hull if you can (which most of the time you can).
The turret ring is already the best weakspot to go for.
And besides, the 2A5 has fuel tanks that can sometimes absorb spall on the sides too:
I would have to disagree for the same point here:
Also it’s 16, since 1 is in the chamber already.
That’s an annoyance that can screw you from time to time.
Not everyone plays aggressively and enjoys knife fights.
Also replenishing takes time and forces you to be at a certain spot on the map.
It’s just something extra that can save you from time to time.
Indeed, but those are much smaller and harder to hit.
Just compare CB with M829A1 to other average/below average 12.0s, you’ll see it’d be perfectly competitive.
Well you’re storing 15 in the turret compartment, that round in your chamber cannot detonate.
Punishment for being too wreckless / unaware, what can I say?
Sure… but that’s how you’re suppose to play it.
Either that or at long-range, which then you can carry hull ammo if you so happen to shoot 17 rounds without returning or going to a capture point.
I get that, but it’s not as big of an issue as dying to autocannons, that’s for sure.
Something that the Leclercs, Type 10s, Challys, and Arietes can relate to.
So that’s what it is? Extra?
You shouldn’t need extra if you’re complaining about its reliability.
Go for the turret ring… please! 1-shot + breech + turret ring + vertical drive + and engine - all in one spot.
It’s always there, if not, the breech at least.
Agreed.
With how I’d want the Leclercs at 11.7, the 12.0 Challys to 11.7, the 12.0 Ariete to 11.7…
The 12.0s would be the Seps, the Merkava Mk.4s and the 2A5/2A6s.
I could see the BVM, ZTZ99A, and T-90M going down to 11.7, as they all don’t have good gun handling, nor reload. And the BVM / T-90M have mediocre to horrible reverse speed.
The Sep should stay at 12.0 - as they’re just heavier CB with commander optics and better thermals.
A reasonable trade-off.
As for the Merkava Mk.4, it much more versatile than either of them… being able to side scrape very well (due to the engine being at the front than the rear and the amazing reverse speed), a 5s reload with a similar penning round, APS, similar acceleration and top speed (albeit slightly worse), a lot of smoke grenades and LWS, better survivability (due to the engine compartment and how large and trolly the turret armour is), and is able to shoot behind it like USSR/Japanse/ Chinese MBTs can.
The problem is that it has worse gun depression (albeit not as bad as the non-NATO MBTs) and the armour being pretty garbage.
I’d say it’s fairly balanced.
Never said it was underperforming, do not try to put my words into my mouth.
I’ve said M883 will increase its chance against more armored targets slightly which will not even gonna be huge buff from the beginning.
You’re constantly ignoring this fact which i dont know why but personally i dont care if it recieves M833 or not, im just stating facts.
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Still something you have to deal with.
Again, it’s a con no matter from which angle you’re looking at.
Maybe I want to reposition to another spot and carrying ammo in the hull is never good.
Autocannons in top tier are a dying breed.
You can breech everything by shooting at same spots, tank doesn’t matter.
Both BVM and 90M have comparable gun handlings to western tanks, of course if you don’t include gun depression into that.
SEP is 1000kg heavier than CB (~0.4 HP/t difference) but gets better thermals. I’ll happily take that.
Sure, and these little handicaps make it so that the CB or M1A2 isn’t exactly outshined - other than with their firepower, of course.
True, but I know there’s still people who play the 2S38 or Namer, or Puma at near top tier.
If you’ve had mixed battles before, the HSTV-L / RDF/LT too.
True, but I don’t think you can say the same for the turret ring - which was what I was hinting towards.
Yes, and it’s the gun depression that I mean more of.
Even with them being closer to the ground, it’s still an issue nonetheless.
Sure, I can see that.
I can’t say the same with the Sep V2, though.
Also since the HC is effectively the CB anyways, it gets access to a dozer blade (that doesn’t weigh anything for some reason), and is worth around 30mm of KE protection.
That’s enough to stop 120mm DM23 through the hull… not that it really matters though, but is quite nice at the moment, as it is able to face 2A4s in a full downtier (for whatever reason Gaijin thought was okay).
Turret Ring is the biggest weakness for any M1 model, if it was volumetric it couldnt be penned by autocannons, not to mention due to how small gap is normal rounds shouldnt be able to go through from the beginning due to getting shattered by turret armor.
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