I don’t think so.
The worse survivability and armour in exchange for the better firepower makes sense.
Tell me, what does the M1A2 have over the 2A5 other than its firepower and, perhaps, the slightly better UFP?
It doesn’t have that annoying gun depression limit, can store more than 15 rounds safely and has two black holes in the front serving as external fuel tanks.
CB with M829A1 would be pretty balanced with 2A5 at 12.0, in fact it would be much more balanced than some other 12.0s when compared to 2A5, at both ends of the spectrum.
If you rely on being able to shoot to the sides of your tank that often, then that’s a problem.
Sure, but I don’t think you need any more than that to do well in most matches.
Most players I know just play aggressive, then rearm at a capture point.
If it’s a long range map, just take more ammo and hide your hull, like you should.
If you have to rely on the trollyness / RNG of the hull and fuel tanks to stay alive, then it’s not really a good tank imo.
And just don’t go for the hull if you can (which most of the time you can).
The turret ring is already the best weakspot to go for.
And besides, the 2A5 has fuel tanks that can sometimes absorb spall on the sides too:
I would have to disagree for the same point here:
Also it’s 16, since 1 is in the chamber already.
That’s an annoyance that can screw you from time to time.
Not everyone plays aggressively and enjoys knife fights.
Also replenishing takes time and forces you to be at a certain spot on the map.
It’s just something extra that can save you from time to time.
Indeed, but those are much smaller and harder to hit.
Just compare CB with M829A1 to other average/below average 12.0s, you’ll see it’d be perfectly competitive.
Well you’re storing 15 in the turret compartment, that round in your chamber cannot detonate.
Punishment for being too wreckless / unaware, what can I say?
Sure… but that’s how you’re suppose to play it.
Either that or at long-range, which then you can carry hull ammo if you so happen to shoot 17 rounds without returning or going to a capture point.
I get that, but it’s not as big of an issue as dying to autocannons, that’s for sure.
Something that the Leclercs, Type 10s, Challys, and Arietes can relate to.
So that’s what it is? Extra?
You shouldn’t need extra if you’re complaining about its reliability.
Go for the turret ring… please! 1-shot + breech + turret ring + vertical drive + and engine - all in one spot.
It’s always there, if not, the breech at least.
Agreed.
With how I’d want the Leclercs at 11.7, the 12.0 Challys to 11.7, the 12.0 Ariete to 11.7…
The 12.0s would be the Seps, the Merkava Mk.4s and the 2A5/2A6s.
I could see the BVM, ZTZ99A, and T-90M going down to 11.7, as they all don’t have good gun handling, nor reload. And the BVM / T-90M have mediocre to horrible reverse speed.
The Sep should stay at 12.0 - as they’re just heavier CB with commander optics and better thermals.
A reasonable trade-off.
As for the Merkava Mk.4, it much more versatile than either of them… being able to side scrape very well (due to the engine being at the front than the rear and the amazing reverse speed), a 5s reload with a similar penning round, APS, similar acceleration and top speed (albeit slightly worse), a lot of smoke grenades and LWS, better survivability (due to the engine compartment and how large and trolly the turret armour is), and is able to shoot behind it like USSR/Japanse/ Chinese MBTs can.
The problem is that it has worse gun depression (albeit not as bad as the non-NATO MBTs) and the armour being pretty garbage.
I’d say it’s fairly balanced.
Never said it was underperforming, do not try to put my words into my mouth.
I’ve said M883 will increase its chance against more armored targets slightly which will not even gonna be huge buff from the beginning.
You’re constantly ignoring this fact which i dont know why but personally i dont care if it recieves M833 or not, im just stating facts.
4 Likes
Still something you have to deal with.
Again, it’s a con no matter from which angle you’re looking at.
Maybe I want to reposition to another spot and carrying ammo in the hull is never good.
Autocannons in top tier are a dying breed.
You can breech everything by shooting at same spots, tank doesn’t matter.
Both BVM and 90M have comparable gun handlings to western tanks, of course if you don’t include gun depression into that.
SEP is 1000kg heavier than CB (~0.4 HP/t difference) but gets better thermals. I’ll happily take that.
Sure, and these little handicaps make it so that the CB or M1A2 isn’t exactly outshined - other than with their firepower, of course.
True, but I know there’s still people who play the 2S38 or Namer, or Puma at near top tier.
If you’ve had mixed battles before, the HSTV-L / RDF/LT too.
True, but I don’t think you can say the same for the turret ring - which was what I was hinting towards.
Yes, and it’s the gun depression that I mean more of.
Even with them being closer to the ground, it’s still an issue nonetheless.
Sure, I can see that.
I can’t say the same with the Sep V2, though.
Also since the HC is effectively the CB anyways, it gets access to a dozer blade (that doesn’t weigh anything for some reason), and is worth around 30mm of KE protection.
That’s enough to stop 120mm DM23 through the hull… not that it really matters though, but is quite nice at the moment, as it is able to face 2A4s in a full downtier (for whatever reason Gaijin thought was okay).
Turret Ring is the biggest weakness for any M1 model, if it was volumetric it couldnt be penned by autocannons, not to mention due to how small gap is normal rounds shouldnt be able to go through from the beginning due to getting shattered by turret armor.
6 Likes
Namers are pretty sad.
I wouldn’t say HSTV-L is an autocannon vehicle, as it’s fire rate is even slower than that of a Warrior which can fire 80 rounds per minute, which is already laughably slow.
In my opinion, only ones worthy of spawning are Freccia with 10x Spikes, CV 90 with 6x Spikes and BMP-2M.
Turret ring is a weakness, but you should always aim to disable the gun first, if you aren’t going for a kill shot on the first try.
I guess they knew no one would run SEP V2 with that additional armor package so they just baked it into the model to make it “unique” lol.
I wouldn’t say they’re great, but at least it’s harder to kill them than something like the PUMA or Freccia.
The merkava hull (although weak) is actually quite survivable.
Too bad the new Namer is going up from 11.0 to 11.3…
I guess, but that’s still something to be worried about nonetheless.
Yeah, I could see that.
The 2S38 is also really annoying to play against with the Abrams.
I would 100% agree with you if you only 1-shot or take out some crew members and the turret ring.
This isn’t the case, though.
You can one-shot through the turret ring.
If you don’t manage to, you’re most likely to get the turret ring, some crew members, the breech, and sometimes even the engine.
And this is for most, if not, all APFSDS that you face - even in a full downtier.
Hell even 57mm APHE is scary:
I always go for the turret ring, as it’s bigger and more constant than the breech (the breech turns around with the turret, and so you may accidentally hit the turret cheeks instead), you can pen it with anything, one shots, and it cripples them way more than a LFP for the 2A5, or the breech of any tank.
Yeah lol.
They are harder to kill than Freccia, but PUMA I don’t think so as that thing is incredibly tanky.
All of your ammo is in the turret, so if you get shot there you lose all belts.
It’s also pretty slow both in top speed and HP/t, which makes it even worse.
True, good thing they’re in the same team most of the times.
Depends what M1 you’re playing as higher BR ones will bounce that shell in all areas except the turret ring and breech.
Tanks like CR2s and Arietes should be much more affected by this, as their LFP is weak and they also have ammo all around the hull.
True, but you need to aim around the center as well.
It’s still 105mm DM33 which is on par with 120mm DM23.
2A4s and 80Bs will have pretty similar weakspots in full downtiers as well when facing such a round.
I usually go for the area around the gun, be it the breech or turret ring.
I mean…
Sure, though the extra survivability / armour can make up for it in some cases - especially in city maps.
That is true.
I didn’t take that into account.
Well that’s what I’m saying.
They all have that same easy to hit and very critical weakspot.
Well, I did agree that the 11.7 CR2s should go to 11.3, and that the 12.0 Ariete should go down to 11.7.
That being said, you are far more likely to expose your turret ring than your LFP - especially when trying to play hull-down.
I think you agreed with me that aiming center mass is easier than shooting the bottom left corner of the LFP / UFP of the 2A5:
120mm DM23 penetrates slightly better but effectively yes.
And the DM33 example was for a full downtier.
You can be crippled, or outright die to 3BM25, fired from a T-55A:
Or an IS-4M:
Now, I’m not saying that they should be 9.7 or some crazy stuff like that.
I think the M1 Abrams is good, but just needs a slightly better round (not even having DM13 equiv at 10.7 is kinda frustrating).
The M1A1 HC and CB should be 12.0, I agree.
But they should keep their firepower, as that’s what’s only really going for them at that BR, other than some niche things like ESS and being able to depress your gun more on the sides.
2A4’s only weakspot with 3BM25 is the LFP and a bit of the breech.
As for the T-80B, the LFP is also pennable (albeit more lethal than the 2A4’s LFP). Though, again, it’s easier to hide the LFP of both these tanks (though less-so with the T-80B) than the turret ring of the Abrams.
The T-80B can also be penned through the driver port, but it’s much smaller than the entire turret ring of the Abrams.
You do you, but I think it’s better to go for the turret ring.
If you miss with vertical offset, you either hit the breech or the 90% part of the UFP, which auto ricochets and goes into the turret ring anyways (though its damage varies)
If you miss with horizontal offset, you either hit the left part of the turret ring (turret ring, gunner and commander), or the right part of the turret ring (turret ring, vertical drive, sometimes breech, and loader).
Let’s say you go for the breech.
If you hit, you will get the breech and maybe the ammo, but almost never 1-shot the crew (wasted potential).
If you miss with vertical offset, you’ll either hit the top part of the breech, which barely does any damage to crew but is more likely to get ammo), or you’ll hit the turret ring, which is much more devastating.
If you miss with horizontal offset, you’ll hit either of the cheeks, which may or may not pen, depending on what shell you’re using and what Abrams you’re fighting against.
2 Likes
And they should get 2nd gen thermal(only for A1+)
What, Leopard 2A4 / M1 Abrams?
Now try with a 11.3 shell.
Extra armor doesn’t save you from darts and your turret stows all ammo anyways.
Well that’s a feature of most tanks.
You’re overly fixated on a single weakspot.
T-series tanks can get LFP’d or shot through the drivers port by a 8.0 dart, it’s not a big deal.
Sorry but no it doesn’t.
M829A1 + 5s reload is already better than what plethora of other 12.0s have.
First of all, let’s not compare 105mm DM33 and 3BM25, former is much better.
If you’ve shown M1 getting penned by 105mm DM33, you should do the same thing with 2A4, as that round isn’t exclusive for Germany.
And much more lethal than shooting to the side of the turret ring and getting loader killed.
why it is such a big deal giving the m833 for the m1?
1 Like
I guess.
Tell me another tank that has an upper portion weakspot that can 1-shot the crew, take out the turret ring, vertical drive, breech, and engine then.
This weakspot is insanely busted.
Other than the LFP of the T-Series tanks, there’s none like that other than the Type 10, which has even better firepower and mobility.
Merkava Mk.4?
I know, but I am making a point about how ridiculous the armour can sometimes be (if not most of the time).
Remember when I said that spalling is based on residual pen?
No wonder the turret ring shot absolutely shits on the Abrams . ~62mm of armour means the spalling is crazy with most long-rod APFSDS, especially for most, if not, all 11.3 shells.
Sure.
Turret-ring shot, like with the Abrams:
Pretty difficult shot, but possible.
You’d be lucky that it even did anything. If you shoot the right side of the driver’s port for the T-80B, you’d get a non-pen.
And what about the left side?
Why are you excluding that?
You’d get the turret ring, gunner, and commander - rendering them incapable of shooting back.
You cannot do that against the T-80B.
2 Likes
Too unfair I guess.