It’s still far better than previous damage model iterations like Realshatter 1.0 , or Leviathans HE Oops No Damage update.
gunners AI cant aim for shit aynways
We’ve gone over this countless times in other threads but fighter DM’s need a fairly massive change. as I’ve proven with video evidence before literally one 20mm round can rip entire sections of your aircraft clean off.
It’ll also help fighters that attack the now much more realistic bombers. You still should never be able to just sit on a bomber’s tail but you should never have your tail be ripped clean off or wing section instantly removed unless you’re hit with a pretty solid burst instead of the “thunk!” wing gone situation we have today.
Yeah and we’ve established that you think that damage like this is perfectly acceptable.
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Ok but think about this, in WT you can choose which belt to use, and let’s be honest all of us using fighters, if it has “air targets” belt we use that bc it has more explosive ammunition like for German planes, and if is not available, we choose “tracers” bc in mayority of nation has explosive ammunition like Soviet Tracers “FI-T” or Japanese tracers “HEF-T” every single bullet is explosive, that’s why ppl can rip off a tail of the bomber
In real life bombers were very strong obviously bc of their structure but also bc pilots didn’t have in their belts full explosive ammunition, they were using like “universal” or “default” belts, you can see that in gun cameras of WWII or reading some history about that.
Now, having said that, do you really believe that Gaijin making more stronger structure for bombers is gonna change anything? At least for the ones that play with cannons, nope, I play with 109’s 190’s and some other planes that have 23mm or 37mm cannons, is not gonna affect almost anything in the ppl gameplay using those calibers, even more if they know how to aim from a long distance, but 12.7mm and below… well Gaijin said those calibers won’t take any part of a bomber, not a aleiron or rudder, maybe if you shoot alot but we don’t know that yet, as far as i know 50.Cal and below is gonna suffer to shoot down a bomber, at least by taking a part of it, bc is more common doing it by sent it on fire.
We’ll ignore the fact that a large chunk of those rounds are missing and that footage is using FI-T rounds with a whopping 4.1 grams of explosive filler. We’ll also ignore the fact that your using what should be historically one of the weakest cannons in WW2 (which was just represented there) to somehow defend said rounds doing this today:
4.1 Grams of explosive folks versus what should be a pretty tough FW190A. How many rounds was that to completely remove the tail Feet, how about the 109’s wing afterwards?
We both know these aren’t isolated incidents as I’ve got tons more videos I can spam this thread with, I could easily go online tonight and get plenty more all in the exact same game.
Would we rather the Shvak act weak (especially with that crappy FI-T belt) as it historically did on SIMULATOR MODE or would you prefer two shots to rip tails clean off of pretty much every WW2 fighter? This doesn’t just go for Shvaks of course as every 20mm is overperforming. As proven on the other thread this is even backed up on the in game damage viewer where yes, one 20mm round can dissect your aircraft. “Fun!”.
Tell us Feet why would you use an aircraft with more cannons when as little as one round can rip tails clean off?
Wouldn’t you rather the game that aligns itself more with realism be more realistic? Just like how the bomber DM update will give life to 30mm cannons that are never touched having fighters that aren’t made out of paper will also bring heavy fighters and historically tough but worse performing aircraft more uses instead of “I click you die” gameplay.
To clarify I’m not asking for aircraft to be utter tanks, I’m asking for aircraft to be what they are and were instead of origami that we have today. Why have control cables and control surfaces modelled if I can one shot your aircraft in half with a single shot of arguably the weakest cannon in WW2?
That’s not what’s happening in game and neither reality.
HE rounds absolutely can damage wing spars but that was never really the main effect of the round… this is why everything is arse backwards in game at the moment. I’m willing to bet like most players you avoid AP like the plague? Guess what in reality did more damage to spars (outside of massive calibre HE rounds) in reality? AP. The whole purpose of the round is to penetrate the skin and wreck everything in its path. Spars, pilots, engines, you name it.
HE in comparison does a lot of damage in a wider area but it isn’t the same as an AP round hitting something directly. In essence a HE round with a hit to the wing might damage the engine or the shrapnel might puncture fuel tanks whereas a direct hit with AP will usually only destroy what’s in front of it, but whatever is in its path is getting perforated.
If you watch gun cam footage you’ll notice that bombers especially eat quite a few HE rounds before going down. This B-17 in particular takes quite a few hits to the tail and the engines. Towards the end of the clip you get a better look at the damage inflicted by those HE hits. It’s not good and I’m sure the shrapnel from said rounds did damage internally but notice how that big wing from that angle actually absorbed it reasonably well (to clarify that B-17 was toast, but notice how the wing nor tail with impacts from 30mm hits didn’t fall off).
Now compare that to this in game, skip to 4:23.
Yes it’ll make a massive difference, your 190’s and 109’s with multiple or large cannons now have more of a purpose. Up to this point I can kill a bomber with 2x Shvaks just as fast as you can with 4x 20mm cannons. I can probably do it even faster than your currently useless 30mm Mk-108.
.50cals shouldn’t be able to insta-rip wings and tails off and it’s stupid that they could. Now they can’t.
What they can do is have their AP rounds actually serve their purpose and kill pilots as well as set things on fire as you’ve mentioned. Nobody will suffer, only those that refuse to actually aim. I have hilariously bad aim but back before everything got buffed to 1-shot killing bombers I had no issues at all with aiming at bomber engines.
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A large chunk? Do you think you would have better accuracy in sim from cockpit mode?
What are you smoking?
Have you seen the new bomber damage DM yet? Do you think that it’s realistic? It’s going to give new life to me running around and using the Qing-6 as a gunship with 23mm defensive turrets.
Look at all the new life that 30mm cannons will get with the new update! This is probably just bad aim right?
This seems pretty realistic to me. I hope they keep it! Bombers are finally playable!
A large chunk of those rounds did miss. Notice the lack of “pops” after a while, the rounds go short and then he aims too far ahead. You’ll also notice how he sprays the wing then sprays the tail. No matter how much you want it to be this game is never going to be Call of Duty where three bullets anywhere kills you. You should be expected to damage a certain section of an aircraft for it to fail, not spray everywhere with an anaemic round and hope for the best.
I will also mention the fact you seem to forget that the La-7 was using quite possibly the WORST belt imaginable at that time. What exactly do you expect that tiny amount of explosive filler and in relation poor fragmentation to do?
You’re going out of your way to find clips with quite possibly the weakest armament you could, with god awful belts to then say “Look! Look how bad it was!”.
Was that older system perfect? No. But tell us all now Feet what would’ve happened if that were today with the first 2x rounds?
You’re using footage for the new damage models when said damage models are still in testing and Gaijin themselves literally state:
“We’ll continue to refine and improve the damage model, rest assured we’re just getting started and have a long road ahead. But we believe we’ll see more bombers taking to the skies of War Thunder!”
We both know you read this part too but chose to ignore it for clout. You’d make an excellent politician as on the last thread you always found ways to squirm and deflect to something different instead of answering the actual question. It’s because of this Feet that as you know many chose not to continue debating with you, you do come across as disingenuous at times.
So I’ll lay it out simply and just answer the question.
Would you rather the current situation where heavy bombers can have their tails cut off in 1-2 20mm cannon rounds and the same goes for fighters no matter the construction (to highlight how bad this is yes even .303 calibre machine guns can chop your tail off instantly).
Or would you rather have a new damage model that removes unrealistic, unfair and broken insta-death moments that never happened in reality. A system that already shows promise and is being tuned before release as literally admitted by the developers?
I can personally guarantee that even yourself deep down will admit that you’ve had more than one stupid moment where your tail or wing just fell off instantly with the current system and I’d bet very good money that everyone else reading this has too. If you’d still rather stick with this stupid system that makes a massive chunk of weapons and aircraft redundant then we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Dude are you blind? Most of the rounds hit. Mouse aim has a far greater degree of precision than you would have in Air Sim.
The damage you are seeing in the clip is when realshatter was first introduced. This isn’t even the older system; this is the new system as it was introduced and the one that you seemingly defend as being the most realistic.
Keep in mind the devs actually fixed it and as soon as they did the usual crowd went back to their same complaints that ShVAK was now a 1-shot cannon that overperformed everything. The damage that you are seeing in the clip is a product of the bugged implementation of realshatter that practically everyone hated.
This is something that they have allegedly been working on for months and the first iteration of it allows a B-17 to tank 6x Phoenix missiles. We can look at past damage model / damage adjustments and see that they really don’t know how their own system works.
For instance you can take a look at this clip from the Leviathans update and the 30mm cannon on the Ariete. This is another time period where you were saying that MG.151 damage was finally realistic because HE filler had no bearing on whether or not a round was effective.
This level of damage persisted for HE cannons for the better part of 6 months and multiple bug reports before it was “fixed” to the damage level that we have today.
To answer your question…yes guns doing too much damage is far better than them doing no or very little damage. It is still far preferable to the situation where only some guns would do damage (MG151) and other guns would no no damage (ShVAK / Japan 20mm) that we have had in the past.
I agree with some of your points, but the “evidence” from dev server you have shown is clearly a case of bugged implementation on the B-17s.
You should worry about the bugs, but not disregard the idea right away, not a single person among us know how the system will be implemented in the live server.
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Something I’d like to see change.
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hte only good ai gunner is on the premium fw189c