Why are you expecting to do anything in a 8in gun heavy cruiser against a battlecruiser, which in real life was designed to singlehandedly stomp cruisers? You may argue this game having many issues with balancing and nuances regarding realism, but ironically the case you mentioned was precisely a realistic portrait of different ship classes in real life.
1 Like
Thankfully, no one is forcing you to play it.
Sounds like he was smart enough to stop repairing his secondary batteries, which is mostly likely why he wasn’t losing crew. You need to know what kind of shells to fire and where, but you still can’t expect to beat a Kronshtadt with a Des Moines one on one.
1 Like
Scharnhorst has too weak guns for my taste. Armor might be good, but its the guns which grind the event. I get far better results in these WW1 38cm dreadnoughts of the Bayern class. 28cm guns are just meh.
Also: Grinding in boats generates event points even faster. So I’d reccomend to use things like the Drache, PG02 or some of the mad russian boats (SKR-7^^). Its faster paced than capital ship gameplay, smaller maps, faster kills, faster matches…
3 Likes
Honestly: I would be inclined to agree.
Either nerf it ahistorically into (e.g. remove internal turtleback), or remove it from the game.
It’s been 2 years since it was included into the game, and we still don’t have any warships able to directly counter it, aside from the short period when Kronshtadt was hilariously OP.
If that’s not an option, then perhaps, at a very least, increase the fuze delay on the high calibre main guns, so that the high-pen shells (eg. from Duilio) would have a chance of blowing up in strategic locations other than by extremely narrow, ideal conditions.
1 Like
Take a look at a few posts above, and you will be surprised how a 6.7 battleship can easily stomp Scharnhorst with the latest damage model. It is true that Scharnhorst had been ruling the top tier battle for quite a long while but it’s not anymore nowadays, but only if more players start to realise the proper tactics to counter it. Reading your comment and you’re clearly suggesting something opposite to what should do against Scharnhorst.
1 Like
Nah, I know that thing for a while now.
It’s not an “easy stomp” as you try to picture it.
Now that you mention it - I’ll add it into the wiki, so that more people would know.
That’s like… your opinion. I disagree.
The last three pictures was taken in the single battle, where I simply wiped out all Scharnhorst of the other team without dying once. I don’t think it was harder than countering any other battleships
Not easy, but certainly not the impossible task some make it out to be. Since the fix to HE, people have completely forgotten about using it. It works extremely well with the new flooding mechanic. Alternatively, just use SAP. You get the performance of HE (with less filler generally) but if it pens, you get the performance of AP (with more filler).
Just stop using AP altogether against it. It doesn’t work.
First of all there’s no example in this game to artificially nerf a great part of a vehicle’s armour due to balancing needs. Second, as Steilhandgrenate had pointed out, there’s no point to do anything regarding AP shells to counter Scharnhorst. Theoretically the 320mm belt plus the 105mm turtle back equals to over 1000mm protection which is impenetrable at point blank even for Yamato’s 460mm guns. There’re many other ways to adjust the DM to reduce Scharnhorst’s effectiveness, but buffing AP shells is certainly not the answer.
IMO there are several different aspects why the Scharnhorst feels OP and I would argue that some of them are making it truly OP.
I would say that it really isn’t as unkillable as it was before but still is very much stomping most of the games.
- The turtle back armor layout is insanely meta right now making Scharnhorst basically immune to AP. @HK_Reporter I have question would the armor be penetrable from let’s say from 20-30km by Hood/Alaska/Kron/Idea?
- Many players unlearned to use HE shell and don’t know that the Scharnhorst is so “weak” against it. And they also learned that fighting Scharnhorst is futile so many teams will ignore Scharnhorst and just hope it won’t target them.
- The BR compression the lower BR battleships have basically no way how to effectively deal with Scharnhorst since their HE is weak and doesn’t deal that much damage. But this also applies to some other top tier ships which are well armoured. But for example the Kron, Alaska have much weaker armor so at least close ranges they are penetrable by lower BR battleships.
3 Likes
Just for the record - I added the aforementioned note about HE to the Wiki (pending approval by the wiki mods at the time of writing).
If they introduced the ship that had no counter and kept it in that situation for 2 years now then perhaps it’s the time to reconsider.
Spot how no other ship was added to the game that has “theoretically 1000mm protection”. Most peak at ~half that. A fundamental balancing failure on Gaijin’s side.
We should be moving towards resolution rather than making up excuses. It’s been 2 years of excuses.
Sure. And while balancing swivels back and forth, the ship remains to be an issue in the top tier. Sometimes the simplest solutions are the best, if their more subtle balancing isn’t working and the thing is still absolutely ruling the top-tier games.
2 Likes
Something like the Lexington class or Amagi class BC’s would be excellent counters to Scharnhorst, Scharn may even be better as she could reliably pen those two but at least their 16 inch shells should be able to get through. Still Scharn’s turtleback seems to be overperforming compared to IRL
1 Like
So just an odd thing to throw in here.
The 14" APCBC the Japanese Have doesn’t exactly struggle to get through the Twin’s armor.
Whether or not their magazine elects to explode is another thing entirely. Or their shell rooms for that matter (like what happens to a variety of US Battleships).
Not saying the Battlecruisers aren’t an issue (they are), it’s likely more to do with some internal (read: coding) factor that is preventing them from being destroyed like battleships.
It is a viable option but not so practically effective. Scharnhorst does have rather weak deck protection, and theoretically her magazine can be penetrated by many 15" and 14" shells beyond 15000m. However such range is rare unless in EC, and it won’t give you a high chance of hitting small parts like the magazine. I would rather count on diving shells at range between 9000-12000m, where the hit chance is much more credible.
Scharn’s turtleback isn’t really “overperforming” compare to real life. The combination of belt and thick turtleback was designed to render its citadel invincible at short distances. However, IRL such scheme has a fundamental flaw: the citadel itself doesn’t contain sufficient reserve buoyancy to keep the ship afloat. While the ship’s vital modules can be immune to enemy gunfire, the penetration of the 320mm main belt may still lead to fatal flooding, which is exactly what happened during the last battle of Bismarck. Before the introduction of unrepairable breach in WT, flooding was rarely an issue, and one has to penetrate both the belt and turtleback to deliver damage to the internal modules, and that’s the reason why it used to be so brokenly OP.
It should be noted that currently there’s a bug causing AP shells not to create breaches after penetration. If this bug gets fixed, Scharnhorst will be easier to kill for more battleships, as the 320mm belt isn’t quite impossible to penetrate. One will no longer have to penetrate both belt and turtleback to deliver a fatal blow to Scharnhorst.
2 Likes
You cant be serious though. Thats my point, getting thrown into games like that because of horrible BR compression. You act like that was some poor “skill issue” choice I made. You cant be that dense to assume such a thing.
This guy had 10 kills because of the naval BR system. Thats my point, thats the problem, of course its a problem to fight a scharn or krons at that range, but even still, the des moines has massive pen with AP, and firing 300 shells onto him at close range, and then me dying in 3 salvos, something is absurdly wrong. Then add hes in a fake ship, murdering our very real ships, spawn camping us, and then Im in the wrong or have a skill issue?
Come off it man.
Next time ill just leave the game because thats apparently what youre asking me to do
1 Like
Definitely bummed I didn’t get the SKR before its cost increase, but of course like all things russian, its BR is still comically too low. It was built in a different time era, and plays like a cracked DD more than a coastal
Maybe one day when i get competitive coastal. Its an extremely painful tree to grind due to the terrible map design and compression, and of course SKRs…
1 Like
Both teams top kilers were SKR-7 players. Its like this every game. They kill more than their whole team combined. At the end one ended the match with 16 kills.
SKR-7’s are broken, so op, so unfair. They lock up targets in the boat area literally at match start and hit and kill over many kms with laser like precision. They even gun down DDs and once they’re inside the brawling area the^y get undefeatable thanks to their RBU-6000 missiles, which even sink cruisers.
SKR-7 even tanking several HE broadsides from my Scharnhorst.
3 Likes
“There is no Russian bias in Ba Sing Se”
4 Likes
What the naval needs is a completely different damage model that doesn’t require blowing up someone’s magazine to kill them… War On The Sea for instance has a pretty good compartment-based damage model, and it’s much simpler than War Thunder’s. It allows slow progression of fires and floodings if a ship is hit repeatedly that eventually sink it. In this game however, fires and floodings can be put out very quickly (unless the game decides it’s an unrepairable breech) so the damage model just doesn’t work imo.
5 Likes
Scharn’s turtleback isn’t really “overperforming” compare to real life.
Proceeds to explain why turtleback is overperforming compared to real life
3 Likes