Mirage 2000 Thread : Variants, performance, characteristics and sources

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Why would the mirage run at 4000m? It can dodge the aim-7m’s, if it can’t its likely for those to get notched.

Then higher speed becomes less revelant in that case.

@simbadumba

Mirage can utilize that top speed to chase tomcat if tomcat has gone defensive in bvr.

And why would Tomcat should get in to that position? Cause it can simply stay low after launching Phoenix missiles from far away and return to low altitude.

@simbadumba

I

İ dont remember so have to check it before but the wasnt the case what i remember, still Mirage can and will see F-14B.

@simbadumba

Does the deployed swings make you more agile than swept wings? yes. However you won’t still beat the instantenous turn rate of mirage with those wings.

İ clearly stated you can evade not beat it, if what you say were true then Mirage would always beat anything in dogfight, sadly in real life F-14 and F-16 plays with Mirage in dogfights.

@simbadumba

The thing is that someone can know what they’re doing but otherwise this is not enough. Mirage 2000 can often close up to enemies that it faces, going inside irccm range forcing a kill.

İrccm only becomes revelant if you sit behind your enemy otherwise Magic-2 is easy to defeat on other angles.

@simbadumba

F-14 has very shit ir missiles, not all aspect, no irccm, low maneuverability, youre lucky to get a kill even at close ranges. additionally you’re flying at average speeds, you can’t chase everyone anyway.

Aim-9L’s pretty good missiles.

Tomcat is quite agile it becomes even better once you deploy your wings.

Got quite amount of close range kills in my both Tomcat, simply untrue and compare to getting kills with Mirage its much more easy considering M61 Vulcan is superior to DEFA cannons in terms of ballistics.

Tomcat can fly much higher speeds easily, simply untrue again besides Mirage will also not be flying at its top speeds most of the time.

Same goes for Mirage 2000, you cant just simply run away from many things on regular combat scenarios considering you will not be on your top speed most of the time.

@simbadumba

Considering that the mirage 2000 can defeat aim-54 without effort i can’t exactly say that this counts as a better bvr capacity…

Doesnt matter if you can dodge or not you have no option to engage enemies from distance where Tomcat can.

@simbadumba

While it has less missiles, it has better missiles.

Again its only better in certain situations.

@simbadumba

You can easily force a situation where the magic 2 is undodgeable.

You simply cannot, assuming both pilots have similiar experience.

@simbadumba

Additionally because the 530D is extremely hard to dodge you almost always get a kill with those anyway.

Your personal claim which doesnt represent the truth.

@simbadumba

F-14’s missiles are widely weaker therefore they don’t make up even in amount.

Simply untrue again, if we consider both planes will achieve 100 percent hit ratio then Tomcat become superior.

@simbadumba

Speed coupled with magic 2’s, 530d’s and good maneuverability are absolute advantanges. The speed fully serves the irccm missiles. 9H’s aren’t effective at all.

Again you’re exaggrating, Magic-2’s are one of the easiest missiles that can be dodgeable even with irccm, if we were talking about Aim-9M situation would be different.

Same goes for 530D’s and maneuverability is not that special,its personal choice.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Then higher speed becomes less revelant in that case.

simbadumba:

Its more about being able to catch someone. either you can or can’t

@Panther2995

And why would Tomcat should get in to that position? Cause it can simply stay low after launching Phoenix missiles from far away and return to low altitude.

It was assumed earlier that both of them start at an altitude in head on
Sure the tomcat can go low, so can the mirage.

@Panther2995

if what you say were true then Mirage would always beat anything in dogfight

This is wrong. You would be out of energy and wether you win or lost would be based on your skill to hit that one shot. It wont always beat everything. However you have one opportunity to kill someone.
Instantenous turn doesn’t mean that you keep the speed when you’re turning, its the opposite. It’s what makes the mirage a 1 circle fighter and what makes it lose in a 2 circle fight.

@Panther2995

İrccm only becomes revelant if you sit behind your enemy otherwise Magic-2 is easy to defeat on other angles.

simbadumba:

And that is exactly where you can get your guaranteed kills from because youre faster. just get behind someone, they can’t run away. That is a very powerful feature compared to f-14a being trash even from behind.

@Panther2995

Aim-9L’s pretty good missiles.

F-14A uses aim-9H

@Panther2995

Tomcat is quite agile it becomes even better once you deploy your wings.

Gotta get slow to use the agility of tomcat which presents a risk. You are more dependant on killing people in dogfights because you cant just get guaranteed kills with aim-9h’s

@Panther2995

Same goes for Mirage 2000, you cant just simply run away from many things on regular combat scenarios considering you will not be on your top speed most of the time.

simbadumba:

The thing is that while everyone in combat is not flying the exact top speed, mirage can accelerate into it if it needs to, additionally mirage probably on average flies way faster than other aircraft even while maneuvering. Especially compared to f-14 at low altitudes.

@Panther2995

no option to engage enemies from distance where Tomcat can.

Does it matter if you can engage enemies from far if you have a 17g missile that is easy to dodge? The kills that you receive are not coming from raw power. They simply come because idiots are too unaware to dodge an aim-54.

That is why f-14a fits 11.7. it can’t force kills with any of its missiles, even the aim-54 is a noob check and evadable
10.7 planes can evade those missiles.
10.7 planes can’t evade mirages missiles, that is not anyhow balanced. even in uptier you should be able to do something.
Since the f-14’s missiles are like aim-9b’s, they require your target to fly in a straight line and not maneuver, they are not that dangerous in an offensive way.
Mirage’s missiles are rather dangerous and even with extreme maneuvering you may get hit.
Mirage can contest 12.0’s and mirage is better than f-14. mirage is a 12.0, there are no other force kill missile platforms of 11.7.

Your missile is not good because you killed a straight flying enemy. Your enemy is just stupid. F-14 wouldn’t be competetive at 12.0 because most people around there aren’t stupid.

In the same sense, one could claim a possibility of killing with amount of gun rouds. You rarely hit your gun rouds but we could argue that if you hit all 250 gun rounds to get a kill then thats quite strong…
F-14A is not effective due to strength. It’s effective because your enemies are stupid. If your enemies are smart, they can counter the f-14A

Simple as that. f-14 isn’t the threat that a mirage 2000 is. F-14 isn’t dangerous, its a noob check.
I bet aardvark is good in air to air because it can carry a large amount of missiles that can hit targets that are ignorant…

F-14 is not competetive in an uptier because it is weaker.
mirage is very competetive because it is stronger
significantly stronger = should have higher battle rating.

[POLYDEUCES]

@simbadumba

winrate

Winrate is meaningless.
But I would agree that Mirage 2000 s4/5 smoke F-16s armed with AIM-9L.

[POLYDEUCES]

@simbadumba

no other force kill missile platforms of 11.7.

You overstate the capability of Magic 2. Currently you do with Super 530D what platforms at 11.7 can do with AIM-7F/M.
Regarding 4x AIM-9L/H or 2x Magic 2 it is a matter of preferance and how any given match plays out.
You have to hold off on shots on Mirage 2000 because you have to fear your missile is being wasted.

Mirage 2000 shines because of it’s flight performance.

Additionally noob check on F-14 would be wether you chose AIM-7 or AIM-54.

The issue as it so often is is BR compression. Without some of the uptiers and people who are not suffering from various issues quite so severely F-14A would do much better. Mirage 2000C S4/5 have somewhat inflated stats from some of the lobbies they end up in. Predomenantly downtiers and questionable gameplay choices in those lobbies by F-4 players in particular…

By and large F-4 players made it possible for me to get more or less the same stats on S4 as I have gotten on S5 when the latter was pretty much the best jet in game. Soft Factors play a role even in War Thunder.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Its more about being able to catch someone. either you can or can’t

İn order to catch someone you have to keep him in defensive position which does not always happens.

@simbadumba

It was assumed earlier that both of them start at an altitude in head on
Sure the tomcat can go low, so can the mirage.

Which means Mirage’s potantiel armament becomes less potent considering Tomcat can carry more ir missiles.

@simbadumba

However you have one opportunity to kill someone.

Meanwhile Tomcat will get more then one shot considering sustained turn fight gives more chance.

@simbadumba

Instantenous turn doesn’t mean that you keep the speed when you’re turning, its the opposite. It’s what makes the mirage a 1 circle fighter and what makes it lose in a 2 circle fight.

Did you just really try to explain what is one circle? Lmao.

@simbadumba

And that is exactly where you can get your guaranteed kills from because youre faster. just get behind someone, they can’t run away. That is a very powerful feature compared to f-14a being trash even from behind.

And how do you plan to get someone’s behind? İf they dont play like braindead that scenario will most likely not happen, another cherrypick scenario.

@simbadumba

F-14A uses aim-9H

And F-14B has Aim-9L which is plane you will reguarly see while playing 11.7 not to mention it sits at 12.0 where you want to put Mirage 2000 S4.

@simbadumba

Gotta get slow to use the agility of tomcat which presents a risk. You are more dependant on killing people in dogfights because you cant just get guaranteed kills with aim-9h’s

Not even true, Tomcat can use it agility at pretty good speeds.

@simbadumba

mirage can accelerate into it if it needs to,

Same goes for F-14B.

@simbadumba

Does it matter if you can engage enemies from far if you have a 17g missile that is easy to dodge? The kills that you receive are not coming from raw power. They simply come because idiots are too unaware to dodge an aim-54.

İt does cause you have to stay constant against upcoming threats while F-14 get better position, denying Fox-3 advantages is just simply idiotic.

@simbadumba

F-14 is not competetive in an uptier because it is weaker.
mirage is very competetive because it is stronger
significantly stronger = should have higher battle rating.

Personal claims, both plane will struggle against uptier.

[Chad_The_Frog]

Yeah I agree. I’m not quite sure where this huge argument came from. I feel identically if not a bit more capable in an F-16 having 7Ms instead of 530Ds and 4 9Ls compared to 2 Magic 2s. Even without the IRCCM, the extra missiles give you more room for error, along with debatably more forgiving cannons, radar, and flight performance.

I also agree and feel like there is a lack of outside influence people are forgetting:

1. It is French, which historically trends of having less players, but those that do are usually are more experienced.
2. There wasn’t any outrage with just the S5 sitting at 11.7, but now there is a problem when people who haven’t played the Mirages or French tree before are put in in a favorable matchmaker also at 11.7?
3. The favorable matchmaker; it is an event vehicle that many people received, playing with usually more skilled teammates, at a br where the majority of opponents are newer players in 10.7-11.3 premium jets.

With time, winrates and the matchmaker will normalize. And if they do go up eventually, they probably would still be fine due to the players that continue to play them, just like every other French, Italian, Japanese, etc. vehicle that is overtiered. But it feels like an argument made out of a fringe example and one players experience shouldn’t have such weight in a sweeping change.

[vizender]

Aight guys. The arguments on the mirage 2000Cs vs other at their tiers has taken more than 200 comments in less than 24 hours and is bloating the thread. Why don’t you guys actually go in custom battles to figure things out ? It would be faster and easier than just meaninglessly saying the same arguments over and over again just in a different way. You guys clearly don’t agree and won’t budge without concrete evidence.
In another topic, have you seen that leak that mentioned the addition of a Taiwanese mirage 2000 in the Chinese tech tree ? Any thoughts ?

[POLYDEUCES]

As far as I understand Taiwan never operated anything but Magic 2 and MICA. AIM-120 supposedly is on the horizon.

Interesting.

[HECZ_QUCK]

Fox-3’s for all nations is on the possible horizon

[POLYDEUCES]

[Kishin_SR6]

Gaijin in a recent QnA from one of their Shooting range said explicitly that Fox 3 technology will arrive for everyone at the same time to not give one sided advantage to a fgew nations. MICA EM is way closer than people may think. And i don’t believ it will be nerf ofc the seeker and tracking will be bugged as fuck as it is on SARH but don’t worry i predict it will be the case for every missile.

[POLYDEUCES]

@HECZ_QUCK

Fox-3’s for all nations is on the possible horizon

@SNITDES

Gaijin in a recent QnA from one of their Shooting range said explicitly that Fox 3 technology will arrive for everyone at the same time to not give one sided advantage to a fgew nations.

You both have missed the suggestive nature of the second part - if you can call it that- of my post.

[Celestia]

My current meme goal for this year is to grind out the entire French French tree using the event mirage…

I don’t really care about the grind, I’m just having fun with a plane that absolutely slaps… the only aircraft that are difficult to fight against are F16s and Gripens.

Against everything else… its an easy win.
The majority of what it faces are Gen 3 phantoms and Mig23/mig21s…

Full downtiers are absolutely laughable…

The matchmaker is primarily the sole reason the aircraft was performing so well. Prior to top tier being moved to 12.7, the 2000c s4 and s5 had extremely favourable matchmaking, I was getting 80% win rate with barely any contribution in battles.

Since the BR update my Winrate has tanked a fair bit with the teams being much more balanced, but my k/d has skyrocketed.

I have to agree that it seems to be overperforming slightly and some of the aircraft it faces makes it an extremely unfair fight for them… its an extremely capable aircraft facing much weaker aircraft a lot of the time, but seems to struggle because it cannot impact the game like other aircraft due to the limited armament.

If it had just 2 more missiles it’s a no brainer to increase the BR to 12.0

[Ziggy1989]

Also, its only going to perform as it does for a moment. As soon as all the lower performing aircraft get their Aim-120s etc it will offset the win rate.

Also, The M2k S4/S5 are in the zone where they still run into many completely new players running with the premium Mig23/F4S so that exacerbates the issue and appears its OP than it actually is.

Raising its BR will only band aid an issue now, but suffer from permanent ramifications and may render it useless permanently if they both go up in BR.

[DirectSupport]

@vizender

have you seen that leak that mentioned the addition of a Taiwanese mirage 2000 in the Chinese tech tree ? Any thoughts ?

No, source?

[Chad_The_Frog]

I have seen people put in on a wishlist for the ‘Fox 3 update’, but I haven’t seen any leak. With other Taiwanese aircraft having AMRAAMs and the PL-12 being mentioned back in the J-8F devblog, I have my doubts on it coming soon compared to other Chinese ARH options. Possibly a event/premium in the future?

[Nike Ajax]

@Ziggy1989

appears its OP than it actually is.

It’s still too strong for 11.7 even if it isn’t as strong as youd want to exaggerate. Also performance of mirage isn’t as dependant on lack of skill of premium players compared to f-14 where you require a cooperative target to get a kill.

[Ziggy1989]

The F-14 is going to get its radar fully modeled and aim54 soon.

[Nike Ajax]

Cool, if the aim-54 and radar gets fixed then its equal to mirage. So, either they both go up or both stay at 11.7.

[Malekitth]