Mirage 2000 Thread : Variants, performance, characteristics and sources

[MiG_23M]

@Panther2995

Except Aim-9B pulls only 10G

11G

@Panther2995

while R73 pulls 40G with TVC capabilites

R-73 pulls 40G without TVC, in-game it is underperforming as in real life it pulls up to 60G during motor operation thanks to TVC and then drops to 40G post-burn (as long as there is sufficient airspeed / energy).

@simbadumba

I think im going to ignore you, ziggy

A growing populous has already done this

@simbadumba

In this case, the difference is between wether you can dodge a 7M by pulling max G and not being able to dodge a 530D by pulling max G, so even if it appears statistically small, its extremely relevant on the battelfeild.

I’m not sure what is being argued as I am hopping into the middle of it. What we know is that the Super 530D is likely underperforming as since it is tail controlled there is a high likelihood that it maneuvers in combined plane. We know the Magic 2 was modified from the Magic 1 to do so, there is no reason not to believe the Super 530D was still maneuvering in single plane when the French had mastered better guidance methods already at the time.

@Panther2995

Just like Aim-7M cause you cannot dodge that missile without proper notching and countermeasures.

I don’t think I’ve had issues dodging AIM-7M unless I put myself in a position where it is undodgeable, such as going head-on above 100m alt towards a target at closer ranges… which is dumb.

@simbadumba

You can dodge the aim-7m absolutely with raw power often at low altitudes so claiming otherwise is misinformation.

I agree

@simbadumba

It is not irrelevant at all becaus when you have to pull 10-11G’s to dodge an aim-7m and your airframe capability maxes around that, you can’t pull more required G’s to dodge the 530Dm making the 530D undodgable in those situations.

The Super 530D is superior as far as kinematics in closer ranges go, chaff is required to dodge it without multi-pathing… but that makes all radar missiles kinda poo rn.

@Panther2995 I’m not sure there is anything to discuss here, you two are going back and forth no better than someone wasting their time arguing with Ziggy at the moment. Seems to me neither of you will admit fault here or change your minds.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

This is your exact ignorance, you’re minimizing the difference so that it means nothing even though it means something. In this case, the difference is between wether you can dodge a 7M by pulling max G and not being able to dodge a 530D by pulling max G, so even if it appears statistically small, its extremely relevant on the battelfeild.

Except there is huge difference between 30G and 5G in this case and no 5G will practically make no difference if you pass 18G tresshold.

@simbadumba

F-14 can kill the mirage if it catches the mirage in a bad situation. The mirage can kill the F-14 if it catches the F-14 in a bad situation
Except the f-14 can force a bad situation on a F-14 because the F-14 physically can’t outrun a mirage 2000 while the F-14 can’t force such situation on mirage solely based on performance and it has to be more about mistake based.

Except F-14 can basically force your hands with Aim-54’s and Aim-7M while you have to notch therefore you flight performance will become irrevelant in that case.

@simbadumba

Also, a bad situation for f-14 is ending within engagement envelope of magic 2 irccm quality while a bad situation for mirage would be having to run out of energy or something similar that can’t be forced with a smaller top speed.

Except in order use benefits of Magic-2’s irccm capabilites you have to sit back on F-14’s ass otherwise he can basically flare it not to mention F-14 can force Mirage on many situations while Mirage has to rely on its initial turning capabilites.

@simbadumba

The mirage has a slight advantange over the F-14 In being able to force a kill against other aircraft and against the F-14 itself which is why the mirages should be at 12.0.

Mirage has one advantage against F-14B while F-14B has multiple ones so its clear how this is gonna end.

@simbadumba

If you can’t provide a reasonable request where i ask you to tell me how you want me to prove something that you’re asking for, then don’t argue.

İ already answered to this question so im not gonna waste my time again.

[Nike Ajax]

@MiG_23M

I’m not sure what is being argued as I am hopping into the middle of it.

530D is considerably harder to dodge than 7M, especially in low to medium altitude situations.

[MiG_23M]

@Panther2995

Except F-14 can basically force your hands with Aim-54’s and Aim-7M while you have to notch therefore you flight performance will become irrevelant in that case.

I don’t think an F-14 has ever forced anyones’ hands with those weapons unless they were flying in space for some unknown reasons

@Panther2995

Except in order use benefits of Magic-2’s irccm capabilites you have to sit back on F-14’s ass

Easily done in just a few turns

@Panther2995

F-14 can force Mirage on many situations while Mirage has to rely on its initial turning capabilites.

The F-14 isn’t the person forcing anything in fights against a M2K.

@Panther2995

Mirage has one advantage against F-14B while F-14B has multiple ones so its clear how this is gonna end.

You’re welcome to elaborate on how this would play out. I already know, and it seems you don’t.

@simbadumba

530D is considerably harder to dodge than 7M, especially in low to medium altitude situations.

I agree, that isn’t obvious to some people?

[Panther2995]

@MiG_23M

11G

Doesnt make any difference in practise but thanks for pointing out.

@MiG_23M

R-73 pulls 40G without TVC, in-game it is underperforming as in real life it pulls up to 60G during motor operation thanks to TVC and then drops to 40G post-burn (as long as there is sufficient airspeed / energy).

Oh yea i forgot it suppose to pull 60G with TVC, any News on that?

@MiG_23M

I don’t think I’ve had issues dodging AIM-7M unless I put myself in a position where it is undodgeable, such as going head-on above 100m alt towards a target at closer ranges… which is dumb.

İ can say the same thing for 530D but doesnt prove anything in that case.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Except there is huge difference between 30G and 5G in this case and no 5G will practically make no difference if you pass 18G tresshold.

simbadumba:

It’s not about “huge differnce” statistically. It’s about wether you have a considerable effect on battlefield. A relatively small statistical difference often means life and death when you are on the thin line wether something can be dodged at all or not.

@Panther2995

Except F-14 can basically force your hands with Aim-54’s

Thats true but in the situations where aim-54 can be notched, it is irrelevant
(remember, we are not talking about situations where notching can be used to compare it to situations where you have to dogde a missile) 54’s are easily dodged and notched and i would ignore them on this argument. You can’t really force a kill with them even someone makes the mistake of not being able to notch due to 54’s low overall G load which almost always allows you to dodge that missile.

@Panther2995

Aim-7M while you have to notch therefore you flight performance will become irrevelant in that case.

Think about this: I can dodge the aim-7m without notching it but F-14 may not be able to dodge a 530D without notching it. Therefore, it allows me to guide my missile into without having to notch, allowing me to kill him, assuming an engagement that is equal at 6km
Arguing about further ranges is less relevant because our argument is based on wether you can force a kill when opposing party can’t notch a missile.

[Panther2995]

@MiG_23M

don’t think an F-14 has ever forced anyones’ hands with those weapons unless they were flying in space for some unknown reasons

Panther2995:

Seems like you keep forgetting when Phoenix came out everyone was force to fly on the deck.

@MiG_23M

Easily done in just a few turns

İf F-14 doesnt play for its strenths otherwise you will sitting duck.

@MiG_23M

The F-14 isn’t the person forcing anything in fights against a M2K.

Panther2995:

İ disagree.

[quote=“MiG_23M, post:2945, topic:1931”]
You’re welcome to elaborate on how this would play out. I already know, and it seems you don’t.

Same for you but i dont think you can.

[MiG_23M]

@Panther2995

any News on that?

They aren’t gonna fix it because they are already struggling with the guidance at 40G with the TVC at lower speeds especially, and it should always hit the target in the same situations regardless cuz nothing is dodging 40G’s. Currently just means it will struggle to hit very fast targets at high off-bore from closer ranges and high speeds. (40 degree off-bore launch against closing target when both are going 1.2+ mach).

@simbadumba

It’s not about “huge differnce” statistically. It’s about wether you have a considerable effect on battlefield. A relatively small statistical difference often means life and death when you are on the thin line wether something can be dodged at all or not.

Magic 2 is not dodge-able from rear aspect within a certain range whereas AIM-9M is and it is also a difference of 5G.

@simbadumba

Thats true but in the situations where aim-54 can be notched, it is irrelevant

You can also do an exaggerated pitch / roll while maintaining lock and hit the F-14 while dodging the AIM-54.

@simbadumba

Arguing about further ranges is less relevant because our argument is based on wether you can force a kill when opposing party can’t notch a missile.

This is a dumb argument to have when discussing these SARH missiles… and the Phoenix doesn’t count for ARH cuz it just sucks.

[MiG_23M]

@Panther2995

Seems like you keep forgetting when Phoenix came out everyone was force to fly on the deck.

I flew the F-14 at the time, and I don’t think anyone was changing how they flew… in fact I think the main reason people were on the deck was due to the F-4J already slinging AIM-7F’s all over the place prior to that.

@Panther2995

İf F-14 doesnt play for its strenths otherwise you will sitting duck.

Such as?

@Panther2995

Same for you but i dont think you can.

The F-14 has no method of engaging the Mirage 2000 except for staying fast and avoiding a dogfight because it will result in Magic 2 up the butt if he gets slow and needs to extend.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

İ can say the same thing for 530D but doesnt prove anything in that case.

It is universally recognized that 7M’s are rather easy to dodge. People have tried to dodge my 530D’s but with extremely small success.
The 7M is considerably easier to dodge wether you dodge a 530D in an extreme situation or not, in many situations where you can dodge the 7M, you can’t dodge the 530D anyway.

@Panther2995

Seems like you keep forgetting when Phoenix came out everyone was force to fly on the deck.

MiG_23M:

This is distracting of the argument. I often go into bvr against F-14’s with aim-54s. It is possible for me to notch these missiles at medium altitudes and to dodge an aim-7M they fire at medium altitudes, while i can force a 530D kill in a situation where they don’t back off and they have to rely on maneuvering.
tl;dr i can rely on maneuvering to kill F-14 while it can’t do that, otherwise i can force them on defensive and probably shoot a magic up their ass.
@MiG_23M What is your opinion on placing the mirage 2000 S4 & S5 on 12.0?
I see it as reliable.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

It’s not about “huge differnce” statistically. It’s about wether you have a considerable effect on battlefield. A relatively small statistical difference often means life and death when you are on the thin line wether something can be dodged at all or not.

Wasnt that case when you comparing Python-3 and Magic-2, wonder why did you stop doin it?

@simbadumba

Thats true but in the situations where aim-54 can be notched, it is irrelevant

Same can be Said for 530D’s.

@simbadumba

You can’t really force a kill with them even someone makes the mistake of not being able to notch due to 54’s low overall G load which almost always allows you to dodge that missile.

Except 54’s are not there to force kill its for forcing opponents hand and try to make them mistakes.

@simbadumba

Think about this: I can dodge the aim-7m without notching it but F-14 may not be able to dodge a 530D without notching it.

You’re doing same thing, you keep claiming you can dodge Aim-7M without notching while it cannot be done against 530D’s without support, i can say the same thing for 530D’s in that case.

@simbadumba

Arguing about further ranges is less relevant because our argument is based on wether you can force a kill when opposing party can’t notch a missile.

Except any effective range becomes revelant in that case.

[Nike Ajax]

@MiG_23M

This is a dumb argument to have when discussing these SARH missiles… and the Phoenix doesn’t count for ARH cuz it just sucks.

This is a rule in place because he decided that any missile in a distance where they are notchable are equal. So, the rule is because of him, not me. I recognize that there is difference between the 7M and 530D at distances that allow notching anyway, however if he does not recognize it then eh.

[Panther2995]

@MiG_23M

They aren’t gonna fix it because they are already struggling with the guidance at 40G with the TVC at lower speeds especially, and it should always hit the target in the same situations regardless cuz nothing is dodging 40G’s. Currently just means it will struggle to hit very fast targets at high off-bore from closer ranges and high speeds. (40 degree off-bore launch against closing target when both are going 1.2+ mach).

Too bad then.

@MiG_23M

I flew the F-14 at the time, and I don’t think anyone was changing how they flew… in fact I think the main reason people were on the deck was due to the F-4J already slinging AIM-7F’s all over the place prior to that.

Personal claims on both sides so it lets cut this part cause we will achieve nothing in this case.

@MiG_23M

Such as?

Sustained turn fight for example? You forgot that as well?

@MiG_23M

The F-14 has no method of engaging the Mirage 2000 except for staying fast and avoiding a dogfight because it will result in Magic 2 up the butt if he gets slow and needs to extend.

Seems like you forgot how to fly with F-14.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Personal claims on both sides so it lets cut this part cause we will achieve nothing in this case.

MiG_23M:

Reasonable personal claims vs unreasonable personal claims.
Saying that 530D is as easy to dodge as 7M because you dodged a 530D once is not a valid argument.
It is recognized that the 7M is easier to dodge compared to the 530D in these distance.
What other evidence do you want other than personal accounts?
What about this: You pick the mirage 2000, i will shoot at you with 7M and you will dodge it.
Then at similar launch parameters, i shoot the 530D at you.
We will repeat this through a multitude of situations where you will see that the 5G extra maneuverability is detrimental.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

It is universally recognized that 7M’s are rather easy to dodge. People have tried to dodge my 530D’s but with extremely small success.

On the other hand people dodged my 530D’s reletivaly easy, personal claims means nothing as i said countless times.

@simbadumba

This is distracting of the argument. I often go into bvr against F-14’s with aim-54s. It is possible for me to notch these missiles at medium altitudes and to dodge an aim-7M they fire at medium altitudes, while i can force a 530D kill in a situation where they don’t back off and they have to rely on maneuvering.

F-14 can also notch your missiles while already sended some phoenix on your way, after that it can easily engage with you and force your hand to sustained dogfight therefore your Super530D argument becomes irrevelant.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Reasonable personal claims vs unreasonable personal claims.

According to who? you and Mig? Dont make me laugh please.

Personal claim is personal claim and unless you have hard evidence it will mean nothing, tbh im really bored of these pointless argument.

@simbadumba

Saying that 530D is as easy to dodge as 7M because you dodged a 530D once is not a valid argument.

İ dodged 530D’s countless times so your argument its pretty much means nothing.

@simbadumba

What other evidence do you want other than personal accounts?

Such as kill records, overall performance values? İf you’re gonna play dumb then dont bother to reply please.

@simbadumba

What about this: You pick the mirage 2000, i will shoot at you with 7M and you will dodge it.
Then at similar launch parameters, i shoot the 530D at you.
We will repeat this through a multitude of situations where you will see that the 5G extra maneuverability is detrimental.

Except it will mean nothing cause most of the time i will dodge both missile relatively easy.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

F-14 can also notch your missiles

If you really wanna mention the ability of f-14 to notch then understand this: I can dodge an aim-54 without having to dodge it, so i can continue my offensive against the f-14 that is defensive while it has to notch to not die from a 530D. If the 530D was as shit as aim-7M, the F-14 could continue its engagement using 7Ms and not need to notch.
The 14 can’t really force a sustained dogfight from a defensive position because it would have to survive against the usage of Magic 2. mirage 2000 would be offensive and it would have enough energy to take a reliable magic 2 shot in its favor. Additionally a gun engagement could possibly be forced depending on the situation.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Personal claim is personal claim and unless you have hard evidence it will mean nothing, tbh im really bored of these pointless argument.

simbadumba:

You still haven’t told me what kind of evidence you would accept so personal evidence is all i can give, however my personal experience is completely truthful and it can be confirmed if you go into a war thunder custom battle with your friend, therefore i wouldn’t be too quick to claim it as false.

@Panther2995

İ dodged 530D’s countless times so your argument its pretty much means nothing.

simbadumba:

Sure you may have dodged the 530D countless times but you’re ignoring the fact that there are situations where you can’t dodge it. I will assume you are lying if you say that you have never died to 530D.
Even if you have dodged the 530D countless times, the 7M is definetly still easier to dodge.
Additionally this is not a black white situation where being able to dodge or not dodge a missile is a static fact.
Even if you can dodge the 530D one situation, you may not be be able to dodge it in another situation.
Also, many dodges of the 530D occured because of a bad launch.
To compare the effectiveness of both missiles, we are going to compare how hard both missiles are to be dodged from a good launch.
Also, if the 530D is stronger despite a bad launch, that should be taken into account.

If this goes too much into non sense, i think we can pull out from personal experiences and look at the facts of which missile is harder to evade where we look at the G forces, acceleration of the missile and overall maneuverability over speed range

@Panther2995

Why do you assume F-14 will stay high in that case?

I assumed that in another scenario it would go low, however because i would be high, the f-14 would be required to point nose at me to get an aim-7f off at me which would allow me to 1. shoot at him again, forcing him defensive or killing him if he refuses to budge and 2. it would allow me to dodge the 7m again.
And if the f-14 is again unable to get off defensive, im able to close in and shoot from side/tail aspect from a distance where the f-14 can’t prevent the magic 2 from hitting.

@Panther2995

Which is what any skilled F-14 pilot will do.

simbadumba:

This would bring the issue where i’m able to dodge the 7M, and the f-14 is not able to dodge the 530D so the f-14 would die. So much for skill.

@Panther2995

Again you’re talking about a theoritical scenario where Tomcat starts is defensive position

Wrong, im talking about a scenario where both sides start from far. However the tomcat is forced into a defensive position because it can’t dodge a 530D the way mirage can dodge a 7M.

@Panther2995

Which can easily do by just simply preflaring, especially F-14B considering it has hundreds of countermeasures while your Mirage2000 only has 40-50.

simbadumba:

Preflaring wont really help at sub 1km especially for an f-14 early

@Panther2995

Again talking about certain scenarios where Mirage2000 will be on advantage, pointless tbh.

You mentioned aim-54. Therefore the F-14 would have to climb up and engage in BVR to purposefully use the aim-54. This scenario is made by you. It was your idea.
You can’t stop the talk about something you wanted to talk about. You yourself brought the topic of aim-54’s in.’

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

If you really wanna mention the ability of f-14 to notch then understand this: I can dodge an aim-54 without having to dodge it, so i can continue my offensive against the f-14 that is defensive while it has to notch to not die from a 530D.

Why do you assume F-14 will stay high in that case? Tomcat can basically climb to high alt, launch some phoenix from 40-60km’s and lower its altitude where it can easily notch any Sarh missiles, you on the other hand have to stay alert against those ARH missiles.

@simbadumba

If the 530D was as shit as aim-7M, the F-14 could continue its engagement using 7Ms and not need to notch.

Which is what any skilled F-14 pilot will do.

@simbadumba

The 14 can’t really force a sustained dogfight from a defensive position

Again you’re talking about a theoritical scenario where Tomcat starts is defensive position, what makes you think it will happen like that cause you fired some 530D’s on its way? Dont make me laugh harder then before please.

@simbadumba

The 14 can’t really force a sustained dogfight from a defensive position because it would have to survive against the usage of Magic 2.

Which can easily do by just simply preflaring, especially F-14B considering it has hundreds of countermeasures while your Mirage2000 only has 40-50.

@simbadumba

mirage 2000 would be offensive and it would have enough energy to take a reliable magic 2 shot in its favor. Additionally a gun engagement could possibly be forced depending on the situation.

Again talking about certain scenarios where Mirage2000 will be on advantage, pointless tbh.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

You still haven’t told me what kind of evidence you would accept so personal evidence is all i can give

i already stated, cant you read or did you refuse to read?

@simbadumba

Sure you may have dodged the 530D countless times but you’re ignoring the fact that there are situations where you can’t dodge it. I will assume you are lying if you say that you have never died to 530D.

İ will also assume you’re lying where you can easily dodge Aİm-7M every single time.

@simbadumba

Even if you can dodge the 530D one situation, you may not be be able to dodge it in another situation.

Same for Sparrows.

@simbadumba

Also, many dodges of the 530D occured because of a bad launch.

Not really but suit yourself up.