Mirage 2000 Thread : Variants, performance, characteristics and sources

Machinery of War Discussion Aircraft
2960

Why do you assume F-14 will stay high in that case? Tomcat can basically climb to high alt, launch some phoenix from 40-60km’s and lower its altitude where it can easily notch any Sarh missiles, you on the other hand have to stay alert against those ARH missiles.

Which is what any skilled F-14 pilot will do.

Again you’re talking about a theoritical scenario where Tomcat starts is defensive position, what makes you think it will happen like that cause you fired some 530D’s on its way? Dont make me laugh harder then before please.

Which can easily do by just simply preflaring, especially F-14B considering it has hundreds of countermeasures while your Mirage2000 only has 40-50.

Again talking about certain scenarios where Mirage2000 will be on advantage, pointless tbh.

2961

i already stated, cant you read or did you refuse to read?

İ will also assume you’re lying where you can easily dodge Aİm-7M every single time.

Same for Sparrows.

Not really but suit yourself up.

2962

Yeah, Super 530D are pretty gimped rn, despite the claimed around “35KN” speed, it initial acceleration ironically slower than SuperTEMP. But still, for 11.7 BR, I think Super 530D are just okay, it just perform mixed between SuperTEMP and AIM-7F.

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2963

I’m sure it will do fine

The F-14 can try, but the Mirage 2000 can quite easily tighten down and shoot you from across the circle or force you slow in those situations. If not, it is easy to run from someone who has no IRCCM missiles.

I might be rusty, but I know the Mirage 2000 is a formidable opponent and you are tossing it to the side like trash? It’s certainly not something you are going to casually mop.

2964

The another reason why this would be reasonable is because the mirage of 11.7 faces 10.7 where it is able to force a kill against anyone despite their best efforts. F-14 of 11.7 Can’t exactly do this (aim-9h are easily flared, 7M’s can still be maneuvered against even at altitude, you may get lucky with a reversal or have to pull 14 into a dogfight which puts it into a vulnerable position,).
Additionally like kfir canard may be able to run away from it.
It is logical in my opinion that mirages represent capability of 12.0 while f-14a early is more of 11.7 and more friendly towards such aircraft in a downtier.
Mirage at 12.0 would retain it’s combat efficiency while not slaughtering 10.7 planes. It is suitable for 12.0

2965

well we have the “Balanced” Super Etendard. And despite Fox-3 aren’t implemented yet, obviously they wouldn’t even give the gimped version of MICA IR for balance reason (that’s why M2K5F was in the 12.0 in before BR Changes).

But a MF1 with M53-P2 Engine I guess it’s also a welcoming addition.

2966

Not to forget that the mirage while a 1 circle fighter, has still a good sustained turn rate which would make it very difficult for f-14 to move from defensive into offensive. It would take long and during that time the 14 would be vulnerable to magics and guns.
Additionally it can be difficult for the F-14 to perform a reversal against a 1 circle fighter in a way that denies missile engagement.

@panther2995 would you be ready to have an 1v1 with me. You are going to use the aim-54’s and aim-7’s that you argued about. I’ll use the weaponry of mirage which is limited to 530D’s and magic 2’s.

Thankfully this is not anyhow viable because as per your argument because you have dodged 7M’s. Also, “every single time” is not exactly the case but i can definetly dodge aim-7m in the situations where 530D may be undodgeable. Also, since dodging 7M’s is so common there probably exists numerous amounts of footage also in youtube.You can also talk to other high tier pilots and ask if they are able to dodge aim-7m’s which should further confirm what i am saying.
Also, i’m recognizing the fact that you may have been able to dodge a 530D in some situations. However it’s not likely that you’re going to be dodging well launced 30G missiles with any kind of ease especially based on how hard it is to dodge other missiles of that G rating.
Spectrum of 25-35g missilse is probably somewhere around

25G = Possible to dodge in majority of situations despite good launches
30G = Difficult, rarely possible to dodge in a small number of situations despite good launches
35G = Almost impossible to dodge in equal situations when launched from same parameters as 7M and the 530D
Are you gonna disagree?

Infact why would a 25G be easy to dodge, 30G be just as easy to dodge but 35G suddenly impossible?

I’m trying to have a good faith argument, anyway.

2967

Why you getting mad at me? There is nothing more to debate. I understand you points.

I said twice they are not stupid, but they are rooted solely in your brief personal experience with one event jet. 68% is the best winrate you have achieved (not the best you can), but for some reasons believe that’s too high for you. Therefore it must go up in BR along with the S5.

Did I miss anything?

2968

I hope you can take part in a conversation better the next time we have one. Id rather not block you but i would prefer that if you don’t have anything to add to our current debate other than talks about winrate then rather not talk about it at all.

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2969

İf that was so easy Mirage2000 wouldnt loose any fights against swing wing or other designs, sadly thats not the case in reality.

İts not trash but its a Delta wing with limited capabilites in sustained fights which is a battle where F-14 enjoys most.

2970

Since fights are based on user skill and engagements are fluid, a better aircraft can lose to a worse aircraft. I dont think your argument is valid on that point. Also, real battles often include other hostiles that make it harder for both f-14 and mirage to go directly against each other in such situation. That is not to say that the mirage 2000 would win in such engagement

Remember that In the engagement where you would go high and then go low to evade, you would have your energy capped at low altitude max speed and you would be forced to first face the mirage in a defensive posture before getting the chance to reverse the fight. Additonally one may fail to reverse the fight or it might evolve into something else that is hard to predict.
The mirage 2000 can turn inside the circle of f-14 if it has energy, so for some time the mirage will regardless be a very dangerous opponent.
Ofcourse f-14 could win if it faced the mirage in a dogfight where both go into a 2circle from low altitude but this would require cooperation from the mirage - mirage has better top speed, it can choose the engagements. it can choose to run away, or to engage in a 1 circle fight if viable.
Starting from equal ground f-14 can’t force a dogfight on a mirage. The mirage can force one on f-14.
Remember, war thunder only considers mirage to only have 1 second more of turn time. This is not a big difference.

2971

Mirage’s sustained turn rate is not enough to force F-14’s hands, if you cant kill F-14 in couple turns then he will start circle around you.

Not really it depends on pilot skill levels, if both pilots have same skill levels then Mirage will have higher chance due to initial turn capabilites but İf Tomcat is more skilled in dogfight then Mirage doesnt stand a chance.

According to your personal claims, again same bored argument.

Same for 530D’s, there are multiple footages where enemy dodges 530, doesnt prove anything.

You will not be able to dodge any missile that has or more then 20G’s if its fired under optimal conditions.

Simple, none of those missiles should not be dodegable without notching or using any countermeasures.

Then you should become more open minded in that case (if you didnt already).

2972

Yeah this is the thing. Because of magic 2’s and better pointing capability, its likely that the mirage 2000 will take the win during those first turns. We should also favor the mirage 2000 in this case because miraeg can choose wether the engagement suits him or not.

Yeah, and when evaluating vehicle performance alone the mirage has a slight edge in dogfights

This is mainly because i didn’t hear you indicate disagreement or agreement on the aim-54 topic. It is hard to consider that type of engagement over if you don’t agree that maybe the mirage 2000 would be able to be better in bvr.

Its not about wether you can dodge the 530D at all or not, it’s about the situations where you can’t dodge the 530D but you can dodge a 7M. It is obvious that you can’t dodge a 30G missile in all situations so saying that this is possible is irrelevant.

You definetly can. Optimal conditions mean that your missile will be pulling max G load and bad shooting conditions would not effect the engagement. For example, you can sometimes dodge the 530E 20g missile very easily frontally even if it is launched in perfect conditions.

I’m not so sure of that. I don’t know exactly how dodgeable the 7M is in real lfie compared to 530D but in the game both of them are dodgeable - hence 7M being harder to dodge.

2973

And i dont think your argument on Mirage vs F-14 is valid as well cause depending on situations anything can be happen.

Simply untrue, dogfights doesnt happen at Mac speed and if Mirage doesnt want to engage with Tomcat then it will not have chance to kill it so either it will face Tomcat or it will keep running away until it runs out fuel.

İf F-14 pilot doesnt use his brains or his plane properly then sure,

For a very small window, if dogfight doesnt start at medium to high altitude then chances will become even lower for Mirage.

Only at sea level, starting with medium altitude F-14B will start to catch Mirage.

Which means both planes will be at similiar altitude and speed, so yea F-14 can force Mirage into dogfight.

2974

I think the reason it is valid is because overall while the f-14 may have edge in a specific situation, it does not have the edge in most engagements, especially when miraeg can pick the engagements.
Even when the f-14 can possibly have a chance of killing the mirage in a sustained turn rate, i think the mirage takes the crown due to it being overall otherwise superior in that aspect.

Dogfights often start at mach speeds. You said the f-14 would have energy. And often aircraft fly at max mach speeds during air rb battles. Rarely do they start dogfightning from mach 0.5.
Often people merge at a mach speed and go into vertical to deplete the excess energy so they can use that for maneuvering. Also people don’t seek for dogfights at low speeds anyway because flying at low speeds is unsafe.

It’s not the f-14 pilot’s fault that the mirage has smaller turning circle while burning speed. It’s expected behavior. It should happen. What is about skill is wether the f-14 can dodge those shots at close range.

We are comparing the F-14A not F-14B because F-14A is a 11.7 just like the current mirage 2000.

Nothing would exactly prevent the mirage going low in such situation and running - additionally at medium altitudes the mirage 2000 will have advantange of maneuvering until the jets hit sea level.

Equal ground means they both start from opposite bases and build whatever speed they want based on the capabilities of their plane - its fair for mirage to start faster because that is within the capability of said plane at low altitude.
Speed will depend on the limits of the aircraft, fairness in this type is restricted to what the airframe can do, not moral fairness of starting at the same point because we are measuring differences between airframe performance, not moral 1v1 performance.

Also the argument about f-14 being able to catch mirage at low speed would be about exploiting a mistake rather than the f-14 being better, since it can’t catch the mirage when mirage is flying at a reasonable altitude in top tier battles, it can’t exactly force a fight based on being better airframe.

Would you mind to join a 1v1 just for fun? It doesn’t need to affect the arguments anyway.

2975

Mirage cant pick the engagements, thats the problem. Mirage can be faster on the deck but as soon as Tomcat gains little bit altitude your only advantage in Mirage dissapeares very fast.

Tomcat have edge on multiple scenarios against Mirage so your point is not valid by any means.

Mirage is not superior by any means, only thing that is better in Mirage is Magic2’s which can be easily avodiable due to how irccm is weak.

Dogfights usualy starts arond Mach 0.8-0.9.

Simply untrue, any skilled pilot will use his plane’s best possible dogfight speed.

Dogfights becomes only viable if the situation is 1vs1 otherwise its pointless anyways.

Which is clear disadvantage against any Tomcat pilot who knows what his doing.

Which becomes even less viable considering Tomcat A is faster then B model on the deck we also compared B model a lot, cherrypicking does not suit you.

Which simply untrue considering Tomcat can deploy its wing in dogfight and will easily gain much more maneuvrebility.

İf you’re gonna start dogfight you dont just build speed, you need to play your cards right and should gain enough speed where you can use your advantages.

Same for Mirage where it can force Tomcat to one circle fight and kill it.

Only on deck, again cherrypick.

Better airframe is exaggerated in that case.

İm not on my computer right now if you didnt noticed, all those screenshots i posted was coming from my phone.

2976

Tomcat at altitude > vulnerable to missiles
Tomcat doesn’t want to get engaged by missiles > has to get low

Mirage is faster low

So the mirage can force an engagement when theres is a risk of missiles against f-14.
Im now going to test the f-14A max speed at 4000m altitude (you probably would not be chilling at this altitude anyway in a real battle but lets include it for your theory anyway).
F-14a is able to go mach 1.45 before “reduce speed” at 4000m
mirage is able to go mach 1.53 before “reduce speed” at 4000m
So, at medium altitudes the mirage will still be dictating the engagements

I’m not cherrypicking, i’m being unbiased. They’re both currently 11.7.

It would not beat the mirage in instantenous turn or turn radius fight. It would have good sustained turn rate.

It’s actually up to whoever is flying how they start the dogfight. If it is beneficial for the mirage to go faster then so be it.

I based on my tests* mirage was faster at 4000m too however most dogfights atleast start from deck and being faster on deck is better than on altitude because deck is safer against radar missiles.
Also, even if the f-14a can kill the mirage 2000 in a very very specific dogfight situation, that doesn’t exactly take away the mirages otherwise superior capabilities that are also pervasive through most gameplay situations.

2977

Tomcat at altitude=Mirage is running away.

Tomcat on low altitude=its about to engage with Mirage.

Mirage cannot force any engagement because only time you can utilize your higher speed will be running away from Tomcat.

As i said before only time you can utilize those speed are the situations where you are running away from Tomcat, if you think you can start turn around and force to Tomcat for dogfight i would suggest to check that option again cause it will not end Well for you.

You should have mention before considering we talked about Tomcat B many times on previous arguments also S4 can and will see Tomcat B so its viable in that case.

Who said anything about instantenous turn? By simply deploying Wings Tomcat can gain much more agility there it can evade Mirage’s initial turn more easily.

Fair enough.

Can you explain those superior capabilites?

İt has less İr missiles then Tomcat which can be easily flareable if you know what you’re doing.

İt has worse BVR capabilities considering it doesnt have any Fox-3 missiles and radar on Tomcat is generally better.

İt has less missiles overall which means less effectiveness in combat, same goes for countermeasures.

The only thing where Mirage has superiority is the top speed which will work when you run away from Tomcat.

As i Said before if both pilots are on equal level and both of them sits at average capabilites then Mirage is more easy to use and has higher chance but if both pilots sits at same skill level and skill level is higher then Mirage doesnt have too many chance against Tomcat.

2978

Why would the mirage run at 4000m? It can dodge the aim-7m’s, if it can’t its likely for those to get notched.

Mirage can utilize that top speed to chase tomcat if tomcat has gone defensive in bvr.

I think i did indeed mention it earlier.

Does the deployed swings make you more agile than swept wings? yes. However you won’t still beat the instantenous turn rate of mirage with those wings.

The thing is that someone can know what they’re doing but otherwise this is not enough. Mirage 2000 can often close up to enemies that it faces, going inside irccm range forcing a kill.
F-14 has very shit ir missiles, not all aspect, no irccm, low maneuverability, youre lucky to get a kill even at close ranges. additionally you’re flying at average speeds, you can’t chase everyone anyway.

Considering that the mirage 2000 can defeat aim-54 without effort i can’t exactly say that this counts as a better bvr capacity…

While it has less missiles, it has better missiles. You can fire your 9H’s perfectly and they are going to miss or get dodged
You can easily force a situation where the magic 2 is undodgeable. Additionally because the 530D is extremely hard to dodge you almost always get a kill with those anyway.
F-14’s missiles are widely weaker therefore they don’t make up even in amount.

Speed coupled with magic 2’s, 530d’s and good maneuverability are absolute advantanges. The speed fully serves the irccm missiles. 9H’s aren’t effective at all.

Because its likely that the mirage will choose 1 circle it will have edge in the first engagement - if it can get a missile off or gun rounds off, it can get the kill. However this is too theory and skill based, f-14 would win if it failed in some situations - in the situation that the mirage can’t run away.
The f-14 might have a larger amount of missiles, but since the missiles are worse, it isn’t exactly better missile vice.
Seriously, the capacity to force a kill with irccm missile can’t be ignored. F-14 can’t do this. This is a huge difference.

As a hostile player towards f-14, you can dodge the aim-7m’s and you can dodge or flare the 9H’s without much effort. And if you are a fast aircraft, you can run away
You have a mirage behind you, you often can’t do shit even with flares

Mirage just is stronger because you can’t do much against it. Even if the f-14 had 8 aim-9H, it wouldn’t make up. Those missiles aren’t equal.

Mirage is also stronger when facing uptiers.
image
You have potentional - just like aardvark with the 8x aim-9b
However, you don’t have real force. You don’t force a kill by having a stronger aircraft. You do it by exploiting mistakes.
Again, a stronger aircraft doesn’t need to exploit the mistakes of someone to kill them whicha makes them better.
You can fight against something that exploits your mistakes - thats reasonable. 10.7 can do it.
Additionally due to f-14’s average speed you’re often more vulnerable towards heat seeking missiles. You’re also a bigger physical target and a heat target. You also burn your fuel quite fast.

2979

Mirage 2000H (IAF) would be 12.3 BR to rank 8 but not rank 7 & higher 11.3

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