Mirage 2000 Thread : Variants, performance, characteristics and sources

[S-200VE_Vega]

@MiG_23M

The F-14 can try, but the Mirage 2000 can quite easily tighten down and shoot you from across the circle or force you slow in those situations. If not, it is easy to run from someone who has no IRCCM missiles.

Panther2995:

Not to forget that the mirage while a 1 circle fighter, has still a good sustained turn rate which would make it very difficult for f-14 to move from defensive into offensive. It would take long and during that time the 14 would be vulnerable to magics and guns.
Additionally it can be difficult for the F-14 to perform a reversal against a 1 circle fighter in a way that denies missile engagement.

@panther2995 would you be ready to have an 1v1 with me. You are going to use the aim-54’s and aim-7’s that you argued about. I’ll use the weaponry of mirage which is limited to 530D’s and magic 2’s.

@Panther2995

İ will also assume you’re lying where you can easily dodge Aİm-7M every single time.

simbadumba:

Thankfully this is not anyhow viable because as per your argument because you have dodged 7M’s. Also, “every single time” is not exactly the case but i can definetly dodge aim-7m in the situations where 530D may be undodgeable. Also, since dodging 7M’s is so common there probably exists numerous amounts of footage also in youtube.You can also talk to other high tier pilots and ask if they are able to dodge aim-7m’s which should further confirm what i am saying.
Also, i’m recognizing the fact that you may have been able to dodge a 530D in some situations. However it’s not likely that you’re going to be dodging well launced 30G missiles with any kind of ease especially based on how hard it is to dodge other missiles of that G rating.
Spectrum of 25-35g missilse is probably somewhere around

25G = Possible to dodge in majority of situations despite good launches
30G = Difficult, rarely possible to dodge in a small number of situations despite good launches
35G = Almost impossible to dodge in equal situations when launched from same parameters as 7M and the 530D
Are you gonna disagree?

Infact why would a 25G be easy to dodge, 30G be just as easy to dodge but 35G suddenly impossible?

I’m trying to have a good faith argument, anyway.

[Ziggy1989]

@simbadumba

I think im going to ignore you, ziggy because you refuse to take part in the debate in good faith and everything you are posting now is ignorant to the current debate.

Why you getting mad at me? There is nothing more to debate. I understand you points.

I said twice they are not stupid, but they are rooted solely in your brief personal experience with one event jet. 68% is the best winrate you have achieved (not the best you can), but for some reasons believe that’s too high for you. Therefore it must go up in BR along with the S5.

Did I miss anything?

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Ziggy1989

I said twice they are not stupid, but they are rooted solely in your brief personal experience with one event jet. 68% is the best winrate you have achieved (not the best you can), but for some reasons believe that’s too high for you. Therefore it must go up in BR.

I hope you can take part in a conversation better the next time we have one. Id rather not block you but i would prefer that if you don’t have anything to add to our current debate other than talks about winrate then rather not talk about it at all.

[Panther2995]

@MiG_23M

The F-14 can try, but the Mirage 2000 can quite easily tighten down and shoot you from across the circle or force you slow in those situations. If not, it is easy to run from someone who has no IRCCM missiles.

İf that was so easy Mirage2000 wouldnt loose any fights against swing wing or other designs, sadly thats not the case in reality.

@MiG_23M

I might be rusty, but I know the Mirage 2000 is a formidable opponent and you are tossing it to the side like trash? It’s certainly not something you are going to casually mop.

İts not trash but its a Delta wing with limited capabilites in sustained fights which is a battle where F-14 enjoys most.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

İf that was so easy Mirage2000 wouldnt loose any fights against swing wing or other designs, sadly thats not the case in reality.

MiG_23M:

Since fights are based on user skill and engagements are fluid, a better aircraft can lose to a worse aircraft. I dont think your argument is valid on that point. Also, real battles often include other hostiles that make it harder for both f-14 and mirage to go directly against each other in such situation. That is not to say that the mirage 2000 would win in such engagement

@Panther2995

İts not trash but its a Delta wing with limited capabilites in sustained fights which is a battle where F-14 enjoys most.

Remember that In the engagement where you would go high and then go low to evade, you would have your energy capped at low altitude max speed and you would be forced to first face the mirage in a defensive posture before getting the chance to reverse the fight. Additonally one may fail to reverse the fight or it might evolve into something else that is hard to predict.
The mirage 2000 can turn inside the circle of f-14 if it has energy, so for some time the mirage will regardless be a very dangerous opponent.
Ofcourse f-14 could win if it faced the mirage in a dogfight where both go into a 2circle from low altitude but this would require cooperation from the mirage - mirage has better top speed, it can choose the engagements. it can choose to run away, or to engage in a 1 circle fight if viable.
Starting from equal ground f-14 can’t force a dogfight on a mirage. The mirage can force one on f-14.
Remember, war thunder only considers mirage to only have 1 second more of turn time. This is not a big difference.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Not to forget that the mirage while a 1 circle fighter, has still a good sustained turn rate which would make it very difficult for f-14 to move from defensive into offensive. It would take long and during that time the 14 would be vulnerable to magics and guns.

Mirage’s sustained turn rate is not enough to force F-14’s hands, if you cant kill F-14 in couple turns then he will start circle around you.

@simbadumba

Additionally it can be difficult for the F-14 to perform a reversal against a 1 circle fighter in a way that denies missile engagement.

Not really it depends on pilot skill levels, if both pilots have same skill levels then Mirage will have higher chance due to initial turn capabilites but İf Tomcat is more skilled in dogfight then Mirage doesnt stand a chance.

@simbadumba

Thankfully this is not anyhow viable because as per your argument because you have dodged 7M’s.

According to your personal claims, again same bored argument.

@simbadumba

Also

@simbadumba

Also, since dodging 7M’s is so common there probably exists numerous amounts of footage also in youtube.You can also talk to other high tier pilots and ask if they are able to dodge aim-7m’s which should further confirm what i am saying.

Same for 530D’s, there are multiple footages where enemy dodges 530, doesnt prove anything.

@simbadumba

However it’s not likely that you’re going to be dodging well launced 30G missiles with any kind of ease especially based on how hard it is to dodge other missiles of that G rating.
Spectrum of 25-35g missilse is probably somewhere around

You will not be able to dodge any missile that has or more then 20G’s if its fired under optimal conditions.

@simbadumba

Infact why would a 25G be easy to dodge, 30G be just as easy to dodge but 35G suddenly impossible?

I’m trying to have a good faith argument, anyway

Simple, none of those missiles should not be dodegable without notching or using any countermeasures.

@simbadumba

I’m trying to have a good faith argument, anyway.

Then you should become more open minded in that case (if you didnt already).

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

if you cant kill F-14 in couple turns

Yeah this is the thing. Because of magic 2’s and better pointing capability, its likely that the mirage 2000 will take the win during those first turns. We should also favor the mirage 2000 in this case because miraeg can choose wether the engagement suits him or not.

@Panther2995

Not really it depends on pilot skill levels, if both pilots have same skill levels then Mirage will have higher chance due to initial turn capabilites but İf Tomcat is more skilled in dogfight then Mirage doesnt stand a chance.

simbadumba:

Yeah, and when evaluating vehicle performance alone the mirage has a slight edge in dogfights

@Panther2995

According to your personal claims, again same bored argument.

simbadumba:

This is mainly because i didn’t hear you indicate disagreement or agreement on the aim-54 topic. It is hard to consider that type of engagement over if you don’t agree that maybe the mirage 2000 would be able to be better in bvr.

@Panther2995

Same for 530D’s, there are multiple footages where enemy dodges 530, doesnt prove anything.

simbadumba:

Its not about wether you can dodge the 530D at all or not, it’s about the situations where you can’t dodge the 530D but you can dodge a 7M. It is obvious that you can’t dodge a 30G missile in all situations so saying that this is possible is irrelevant.

@Panther2995

You will not be able to dodge any missile that has or more then 20G’s if its fired under optimal conditions.

simbadumba:

You definetly can. Optimal conditions mean that your missile will be pulling max G load and bad shooting conditions would not effect the engagement. For example, you can sometimes dodge the 530E 20g missile very easily frontally even if it is launched in perfect conditions.

@Panther2995

Simple, none of those missiles should not be dodegable without notching or using any countermeasures.

simbadumba:

I’m not so sure of that. I don’t know exactly how dodgeable the 7M is in real lfie compared to 530D but in the game both of them are dodgeable - hence 7M being harder to dodge.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

I dont think your argument is valid on that point

And i dont think your argument on Mirage vs F-14 is valid as well cause depending on situations anything can be happen.

@simbadumba

Remember that In the engagement where you would go high and then go low to evade, you would have your energy capped at low altitude max speed and you would be forced to first face the mirage in a defensive posture before getting the chance to reverse the fight.

Simply untrue, dogfights doesnt happen at Mac speed and if Mirage doesnt want to engage with Tomcat then it will not have chance to kill it so either it will face Tomcat or it will keep running away until it runs out fuel.

@simbadumba

The mirage 2000 can turn inside the circle of f-14 if it has energy,

İf F-14 pilot doesnt use his brains or his plane properly then sure,

@simbadumba

so for some time the mirage will regardless be a very dangerous opponent.

For a very small window, if dogfight doesnt start at medium to high altitude then chances will become even lower for Mirage.

@simbadumba

mirage has better top speed

Only at sea level, starting with medium altitude F-14B will start to catch Mirage.

@simbadumba

Starting from equal ground f-14 can’t force a dogfight on a mirage. The mirage can force one on f-14.

Which means both planes will be at similiar altitude and speed, so yea F-14 can force Mirage into dogfight.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

And i dont think your argument on Mirage vs F-14 is valid as well cause depending on situations anything can be happen.

simbadumba:

I think the reason it is valid is because overall while the f-14 may have edge in a specific situation, it does not have the edge in most engagements, especially when miraeg can pick the engagements.
Even when the f-14 can possibly have a chance of killing the mirage in a sustained turn rate, i think the mirage takes the crown due to it being overall otherwise superior in that aspect.

@Panther2995

Simply untrue, dogfights doesnt happen at Mac speed and if Mirage doesnt want to engage with Tomcat then it will not have chance to kill it so either it will face Tomcat or it will keep running away until it runs out fuel.

simbadumba:

Dogfights often start at mach speeds. You said the f-14 would have energy. And often aircraft fly at max mach speeds during air rb battles. Rarely do they start dogfightning from mach 0.5.
Often people merge at a mach speed and go into vertical to deplete the excess energy so they can use that for maneuvering. Also people don’t seek for dogfights at low speeds anyway because flying at low speeds is unsafe.

@Panther2995

İf F-14 pilot doesnt use his brains or his plane properly then sure,

simbadumba:

It’s not the f-14 pilot’s fault that the mirage has smaller turning circle while burning speed. It’s expected behavior. It should happen. What is about skill is wether the f-14 can dodge those shots at close range.

@Panther2995

Only at sea level, starting with medium altitude F-14B will start to catch Mirage.

simbadumba:

We are comparing the F-14A not F-14B because F-14A is a 11.7 just like the current mirage 2000.

@Panther2995

Which means both planes will be at similiar altitude and speed, so yea F-14 can force Mirage into dogfight.

Nothing would exactly prevent the mirage going low in such situation and running - additionally at medium altitudes the mirage 2000 will have advantange of maneuvering until the jets hit sea level.

@Panther2995

Which means both planes will be at similiar altitude and speed, so yea F-14 can force Mirage into dogfight.

Equal ground means they both start from opposite bases and build whatever speed they want based on the capabilities of their plane - its fair for mirage to start faster because that is within the capability of said plane at low altitude.
Speed will depend on the limits of the aircraft, fairness in this type is restricted to what the airframe can do, not moral fairness of starting at the same point because we are measuring differences between airframe performance, not moral 1v1 performance.

Also the argument about f-14 being able to catch mirage at low speed would be about exploiting a mistake rather than the f-14 being better, since it can’t catch the mirage when mirage is flying at a reasonable altitude in top tier battles, it can’t exactly force a fight based on being better airframe.

Would you mind to join a 1v1 just for fun? It doesn’t need to affect the arguments anyway.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

I think the reason it is valid is because overall while the f-14 may have edge in a specific situation, it does not have the edge in most engagements, especially when miraeg can pick the engagements.

Mirage cant pick the engagements, thats the problem. Mirage can be faster on the deck but as soon as Tomcat gains little bit altitude your only advantage in Mirage dissapeares very fast.

@simbadumba

I think the reason it is valid is because overall while the f-14 may have edge in a specific situation,

Tomcat have edge on multiple scenarios against Mirage so your point is not valid by any means.

@simbadumba

Even when the f-14 can possibly have a chance of killing the mirage in a sustained turn rate, i think the mirage takes the crown due to it being overall otherwise superior in that aspect.

Mirage is not superior by any means, only thing that is better in Mirage is Magic2’s which can be easily avodiable due to how irccm is weak.

@simbadumba

Dogfights often start at mach speeds. You said the f-14 would have energy. And often aircraft fly at max mach speeds during air rb battles. Rarely do they start dogfightning from mach 0.5.

Dogfights usualy starts arond Mach 0.8-0.9.

@simbadumba

Often people merge at a mach speed and go into vertical to deplete the excess energy so they can use that for maneuvering.

Simply untrue, any skilled pilot will use his plane’s best possible dogfight speed.

@simbadumba

Also people don’t seek for dogfights at low speeds anyway because flying at low speeds is unsafe.

Dogfights becomes only viable if the situation is 1vs1 otherwise its pointless anyways.

@simbadumba

It’s not the f-14 pilot’s fault that the mirage has smaller turning circle while burning speed

Which is clear disadvantage against any Tomcat pilot who knows what his doing.

@simbadumba

We are comparing the F-14A not F-14B because F-14A is a 11.7 just like the current mirage 2000.

Which becomes even less viable considering Tomcat A is faster then B model on the deck we also compared B model a lot, cherrypicking does not suit you.

@simbadumba

Nothing would exactly prevent the mirage going low in such situation and running - additionally at medium altitudes the mirage 2000 will have advantange of maneuvering until the jets hit sea level.

Which simply untrue considering Tomcat can deploy its wing in dogfight and will easily gain much more maneuvrebility.

@simbadumba

Equal ground means they both start from opposite bases and build whatever speed they want based on the capabilities of their plane

İf you’re gonna start dogfight you dont just build speed, you need to play your cards right and should gain enough speed where you can use your advantages.

@simbadumba

Also the argument about f-14 being able to catch mirage at low speed would be about exploiting a mistake rather than the f-14 being better,

Same for Mirage where it can force Tomcat to one circle fight and kill it.

@simbadumba

since it can’t catch the mirage

Only on deck, again cherrypick.

@simbadumba

it can’t exactly force a fight based on being better airframe.

Better airframe is exaggerated in that case.

@simbadumba

Would you mind to join a 1v1 just for fun? It doesn’t need to affect the arguments anyway.

İm not on my computer right now if you didnt noticed, all those screenshots i posted was coming from my phone.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

Mirage cant pick the engagements, thats the problem. Mirage can be faster on the deck but as soon as Tomcat gains little bit altitude your only advantage in Mirage dissapeares very fast.

simbadumba:

Tomcat at altitude > vulnerable to missiles
Tomcat doesn’t want to get engaged by missiles > has to get low

Mirage is faster low

So the mirage can force an engagement when theres is a risk of missiles against f-14.
Im now going to test the f-14A max speed at 4000m altitude (you probably would not be chilling at this altitude anyway in a real battle but lets include it for your theory anyway).
F-14a is able to go mach 1.45 before “reduce speed” at 4000m
mirage is able to go mach 1.53 before “reduce speed” at 4000m
So, at medium altitudes the mirage will still be dictating the engagements

@Panther2995

Which becomes even less viable considering Tomcat A is faster then B model on the deck we also compared B model a lot, cherrypicking does not suit you.

simbadumba:

I’m not cherrypicking, i’m being unbiased. They’re both currently 11.7.

@Panther2995

Which simply untrue considering Tomcat can deploy its wing in dogfight and will easily gain much more maneuvrebility.

simbadumba:

It would not beat the mirage in instantenous turn or turn radius fight. It would have good sustained turn rate.

@Panther2995

İf you’re gonna start dogfight you dont just build speed,

It’s actually up to whoever is flying how they start the dogfight. If it is beneficial for the mirage to go faster then so be it.

@Panther2995

Only on deck, again cherrypick.

simbadumba:

I based on my tests* mirage was faster at 4000m too however most dogfights atleast start from deck and being faster on deck is better than on altitude because deck is safer against radar missiles.
Also, even if the f-14a can kill the mirage 2000 in a very very specific dogfight situation, that doesn’t exactly take away the mirages otherwise superior capabilities that are also pervasive through most gameplay situations.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Tomcat at altitude > vulnerable to missiles
Tomcat doesn’t want to get engaged by missiles > has to get low

Tomcat at altitude=Mirage is running away.

Tomcat on low altitude=its about to engage with Mirage.

@simbadumba

So the mirage can force an engagement when theres is a risk of missiles against f-14.

Mirage cannot force any engagement because only time you can utilize your higher speed will be running away from Tomcat.

@simbadumba

So, at medium altitudes the mirage will still be dictating the engagements

As i said before only time you can utilize those speed are the situations where you are running away from Tomcat, if you think you can start turn around and force to Tomcat for dogfight i would suggest to check that option again cause it will not end Well for you.

@simbadumba

I’m not cherrypicking, i’m being unbiased. They’re both currently 11.7.

You should have mention before considering we talked about Tomcat B many times on previous arguments also S4 can and will see Tomcat B so its viable in that case.

@simbadumba

It would not beat the mirage in instantenous turn or turn radius fight. It would have good sustained turn rate.

Who said anything about instantenous turn? By simply deploying Wings Tomcat can gain much more agility there it can evade Mirage’s initial turn more easily.

@simbadumba

It’s actually up to whoever is flying how they start the dogfight. If it is beneficial for the mirage to go faster then so be it.

Panther2995:

Fair enough.

@simbadumba

mirages otherwise superior capabilities

Can you explain those superior capabilites?

İt has less İr missiles then Tomcat which can be easily flareable if you know what you’re doing.

İt has worse BVR capabilities considering it doesnt have any Fox-3 missiles and radar on Tomcat is generally better.

İt has less missiles overall which means less effectiveness in combat, same goes for countermeasures.

The only thing where Mirage has superiority is the top speed which will work when you run away from Tomcat.

As i Said before if both pilots are on equal level and both of them sits at average capabilites then Mirage is more easy to use and has higher chance but if both pilots sits at same skill level and skill level is higher then Mirage doesnt have too many chance against Tomcat.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

Tomcat at altitude=Mirage is running away.

Why would the mirage run at 4000m? It can dodge the aim-7m’s, if it can’t its likely for those to get notched.

@Panther2995

As i said before only time you can utilize those speed are the situations where you are running away from Tomcat

Mirage can utilize that top speed to chase tomcat if tomcat has gone defensive in bvr.

@Panther2995

You should have mention before considering we talked about Tomcat B many times on previous arguments also S4 can and will see Tomcat B so its viable in that case.

simbadumba:

I think i did indeed mention it earlier.

@Panther2995

Who said anything about instantenous turn? By simply deploying Wings Tomcat can gain much more agility there it can evade Mirage’s initial turn more easily.

simbadumba:

Does the deployed swings make you more agile than swept wings? yes. However you won’t still beat the instantenous turn rate of mirage with those wings.

@Panther2995

İt has less İr missiles then Tomcat which can be easily flareable if you know what you’re doing.

The thing is that someone can know what they’re doing but otherwise this is not enough. Mirage 2000 can often close up to enemies that it faces, going inside irccm range forcing a kill.
F-14 has very shit ir missiles, not all aspect, no irccm, low maneuverability, youre lucky to get a kill even at close ranges. additionally you’re flying at average speeds, you can’t chase everyone anyway.

@Panther2995

İt has worse BVR capabilities considering it doesnt have any Fox-3 missiles and radar on Tomcat is generally better.

Considering that the mirage 2000 can defeat aim-54 without effort i can’t exactly say that this counts as a better bvr capacity…

@Panther2995

İt has less missiles overall which means less effectiveness in combat, same goes for countermeasures.

While it has less missiles, it has better missiles. You can fire your 9H’s perfectly and they are going to miss or get dodged
You can easily force a situation where the magic 2 is undodgeable. Additionally because the 530D is extremely hard to dodge you almost always get a kill with those anyway.
F-14’s missiles are widely weaker therefore they don’t make up even in amount.

@Panther2995

The only thing where Mirage has superiority is the top speed which will work when you run away from Tomcat.

Speed coupled with magic 2’s, 530d’s and good maneuverability are absolute advantanges. The speed fully serves the irccm missiles. 9H’s aren’t effective at all.

@Panther2995

if both pilots sits at same skill level and skill level is higher then Mirage doesnt have too many chance against Tomcat.

Because its likely that the mirage will choose 1 circle it will have edge in the first engagement - if it can get a missile off or gun rounds off, it can get the kill. However this is too theory and skill based, f-14 would win if it failed in some situations - in the situation that the mirage can’t run away.
The f-14 might have a larger amount of missiles, but since the missiles are worse, it isn’t exactly better missile vice.
Seriously, the capacity to force a kill with irccm missile can’t be ignored. F-14 can’t do this. This is a huge difference.

As a hostile player towards f-14, you can dodge the aim-7m’s and you can dodge or flare the 9H’s without much effort. And if you are a fast aircraft, you can run away
You have a mirage behind you, you often can’t do shit even with flares

Mirage just is stronger because you can’t do much against it. Even if the f-14 had 8 aim-9H, it wouldn’t make up. Those missiles aren’t equal.

Mirage is also stronger when facing uptiers.

You have potentional - just like aardvark with the 8x aim-9b
However, you don’t have real force. You don’t force a kill by having a stronger aircraft. You do it by exploiting mistakes.
Again, a stronger aircraft doesn’t need to exploit the mistakes of someone to kill them whicha makes them better.
You can fight against something that exploits your mistakes - thats reasonable. 10.7 can do it.
Additionally due to f-14’s average speed you’re often more vulnerable towards heat seeking missiles. You’re also a bigger physical target and a heat target. You also burn your fuel quite fast.

[oom1992]

@DrMagnum0007

I would love to see the Indian mirage 2000H as a premium for France. It’s basically a mirage 2000 5F with r-73 missiles.
[image]

Mirage 2000H (IAF) would be 12.3 BR to rank 8 but not rank 7 & higher 11.3

[Dragethan]

What scares me is the UK/commonwealth tree getting it

[S-200VE_Vega]

We can consider the f-14a equal to mirage when phoenixes get their 25g fix, if they ever get one.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Why would the mirage run at 4000m? It can dodge the aim-7m’s, if it can’t its likely for those to get notched.

Then higher speed becomes less revelant in that case.

@simbadumba

Mirage can utilize that top speed to chase tomcat if tomcat has gone defensive in bvr.

And why would Tomcat should get in to that position? Cause it can simply stay low after launching Phoenix missiles from far away and return to low altitude.

@simbadumba

I

İ dont remember so have to check it before but the wasnt the case what i remember, still Mirage can and will see F-14B.

@simbadumba

Does the deployed swings make you more agile than swept wings? yes. However you won’t still beat the instantenous turn rate of mirage with those wings.

İ clearly stated you can evade not beat it, if what you say were true then Mirage would always beat anything in dogfight, sadly in real life F-14 and F-16 plays with Mirage in dogfights.

@simbadumba

The thing is that someone can know what they’re doing but otherwise this is not enough. Mirage 2000 can often close up to enemies that it faces, going inside irccm range forcing a kill.

İrccm only becomes revelant if you sit behind your enemy otherwise Magic-2 is easy to defeat on other angles.

@simbadumba

F-14 has very shit ir missiles, not all aspect, no irccm, low maneuverability, youre lucky to get a kill even at close ranges. additionally you’re flying at average speeds, you can’t chase everyone anyway.

Aim-9L’s pretty good missiles.

Tomcat is quite agile it becomes even better once you deploy your wings.

Got quite amount of close range kills in my both Tomcat, simply untrue and compare to getting kills with Mirage its much more easy considering M61 Vulcan is superior to DEFA cannons in terms of ballistics.

Tomcat can fly much higher speeds easily, simply untrue again besides Mirage will also not be flying at its top speeds most of the time.

Same goes for Mirage 2000, you cant just simply run away from many things on regular combat scenarios considering you will not be on your top speed most of the time.

@simbadumba

Considering that the mirage 2000 can defeat aim-54 without effort i can’t exactly say that this counts as a better bvr capacity…

Doesnt matter if you can dodge or not you have no option to engage enemies from distance where Tomcat can.

@simbadumba

While it has less missiles, it has better missiles.

Again its only better in certain situations.

@simbadumba

You can easily force a situation where the magic 2 is undodgeable.

You simply cannot, assuming both pilots have similiar experience.

@simbadumba

Additionally because the 530D is extremely hard to dodge you almost always get a kill with those anyway.

Your personal claim which doesnt represent the truth.

@simbadumba

F-14’s missiles are widely weaker therefore they don’t make up even in amount.

Simply untrue again, if we consider both planes will achieve 100 percent hit ratio then Tomcat become superior.

@simbadumba

Speed coupled with magic 2’s, 530d’s and good maneuverability are absolute advantanges. The speed fully serves the irccm missiles. 9H’s aren’t effective at all.

Again you’re exaggrating, Magic-2’s are one of the easiest missiles that can be dodgeable even with irccm, if we were talking about Aim-9M situation would be different.

Same goes for 530D’s and maneuverability is not that special,its personal choice.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

Then higher speed becomes less revelant in that case.

simbadumba:

Its more about being able to catch someone. either you can or can’t

@Panther2995

And why would Tomcat should get in to that position? Cause it can simply stay low after launching Phoenix missiles from far away and return to low altitude.

It was assumed earlier that both of them start at an altitude in head on
Sure the tomcat can go low, so can the mirage.

@Panther2995

if what you say were true then Mirage would always beat anything in dogfight

This is wrong. You would be out of energy and wether you win or lost would be based on your skill to hit that one shot. It wont always beat everything. However you have one opportunity to kill someone.
Instantenous turn doesn’t mean that you keep the speed when you’re turning, its the opposite. It’s what makes the mirage a 1 circle fighter and what makes it lose in a 2 circle fight.

@Panther2995

İrccm only becomes revelant if you sit behind your enemy otherwise Magic-2 is easy to defeat on other angles.

simbadumba:

And that is exactly where you can get your guaranteed kills from because youre faster. just get behind someone, they can’t run away. That is a very powerful feature compared to f-14a being trash even from behind.

@Panther2995

Aim-9L’s pretty good missiles.

F-14A uses aim-9H

@Panther2995

Tomcat is quite agile it becomes even better once you deploy your wings.

Gotta get slow to use the agility of tomcat which presents a risk. You are more dependant on killing people in dogfights because you cant just get guaranteed kills with aim-9h’s

@Panther2995

Same goes for Mirage 2000, you cant just simply run away from many things on regular combat scenarios considering you will not be on your top speed most of the time.

simbadumba:

The thing is that while everyone in combat is not flying the exact top speed, mirage can accelerate into it if it needs to, additionally mirage probably on average flies way faster than other aircraft even while maneuvering. Especially compared to f-14 at low altitudes.

@Panther2995

no option to engage enemies from distance where Tomcat can.

Does it matter if you can engage enemies from far if you have a 17g missile that is easy to dodge? The kills that you receive are not coming from raw power. They simply come because idiots are too unaware to dodge an aim-54.

That is why f-14a fits 11.7. it can’t force kills with any of its missiles, even the aim-54 is a noob check and evadable
10.7 planes can evade those missiles.
10.7 planes can’t evade mirages missiles, that is not anyhow balanced. even in uptier you should be able to do something.
Since the f-14’s missiles are like aim-9b’s, they require your target to fly in a straight line and not maneuver, they are not that dangerous in an offensive way.
Mirage’s missiles are rather dangerous and even with extreme maneuvering you may get hit.
Mirage can contest 12.0’s and mirage is better than f-14. mirage is a 12.0, there are no other force kill missile platforms of 11.7.

Your missile is not good because you killed a straight flying enemy. Your enemy is just stupid. F-14 wouldn’t be competetive at 12.0 because most people around there aren’t stupid.

In the same sense, one could claim a possibility of killing with amount of gun rouds. You rarely hit your gun rouds but we could argue that if you hit all 250 gun rounds to get a kill then thats quite strong…
F-14A is not effective due to strength. It’s effective because your enemies are stupid. If your enemies are smart, they can counter the f-14A

Simple as that. f-14 isn’t the threat that a mirage 2000 is. F-14 isn’t dangerous, its a noob check.
I bet aardvark is good in air to air because it can carry a large amount of missiles that can hit targets that are ignorant…

F-14 is not competetive in an uptier because it is weaker.
mirage is very competetive because it is stronger
significantly stronger = should have higher battle rating.

[POLYDEUCES]

@simbadumba

winrate

Winrate is meaningless.
But I would agree that Mirage 2000 s4/5 smoke F-16s armed with AIM-9L.

[POLYDEUCES]

@simbadumba

no other force kill missile platforms of 11.7.

You overstate the capability of Magic 2. Currently you do with Super 530D what platforms at 11.7 can do with AIM-7F/M.
Regarding 4x AIM-9L/H or 2x Magic 2 it is a matter of preferance and how any given match plays out.
You have to hold off on shots on Mirage 2000 because you have to fear your missile is being wasted.

Mirage 2000 shines because of it’s flight performance.

Additionally noob check on F-14 would be wether you chose AIM-7 or AIM-54.

The issue as it so often is is BR compression. Without some of the uptiers and people who are not suffering from various issues quite so severely F-14A would do much better. Mirage 2000C S4/5 have somewhat inflated stats from some of the lobbies they end up in. Predomenantly downtiers and questionable gameplay choices in those lobbies by F-4 players in particular…

By and large F-4 players made it possible for me to get more or less the same stats on S4 as I have gotten on S5 when the latter was pretty much the best jet in game. Soft Factors play a role even in War Thunder.