Mirage 2000 Thread : Variants, performance, characteristics and sources

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

The situations are not “theoretical”, they are real situations that happen during the battle and you can easily verify this by trying to dodge a 530D and 7M in same conditions where a kill is permitted for 530D but not for 7M. The fact that you can confirm what i said ingame makes them factually bulletproof.

Then Show me hard evidence, we started this conversation 1.5 hour ago yet i didnt saw any evidence from you,only claims and claims.

Like i Said you’re just talking about personal claims and theoritical scenarios.

@simbadumba

Your personal experience shows you having exceptional KD ratio in the mirage therefore there is no indication of the mirage 2000 being “average” for 11.7. It is definetly and absolutely strong.

My personal performance on many planes are much higher then average performance on general thats why i dont bring my personal service record into situation cause individual experiences doesnt mean shit, if that was the case then J35XS should’ve been 13.0 cause i have 64 percent win rate and 6.8 K/D ratio in that plane while general service record on J35XS is nothing special.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Then Show me hard evidence, we started this conversation 1.5 hour ago yet i didnt saw any evidence from you,only claims and claims.

Hard evidence. 7M has a max G force of 25G and 530D has max G force of 30G. 7M is dodgeable in many situations where 530D is not due to higher G force. Situations where the 7M barely missed due to maneuvering but that would be attainable with extra 5G’s of maneuvering would mean that the 530D is able to get a kill in a situation where 7M can’t be.

simbadumba:
[/quote]

@Panther2995

J35XS should be 13.0 cause i have 64 percent win rate

Another ignorant argument where you’re trying to over exaggerate what i’m saying. I never claimed that the S4 should be maximum highest possible tier, and based on the argument, is j35XS is over performing it would not go to 13.0
Therefore again, stop with your ad hominem stuff, its against war thunder rules.

Additionally, you can’t claim that a scenario is purely theoritical if it can happen during battle.
If the scenario can happen during battle especially reasonably, it is a valid scenario to be used for comparison.

It is a widely known fact that the 7M missile can be dodged by pulling G’s that an airframe (for example mig-29) can pull. You can defeat a 25G missile without breaking your wings. However, in a similar scenario (thick air, low altitude, same range of starting the shot, eg 5km), the 530D is extremely hard to defeat in same launch conditions. the 7M is defeatable by pulling 11G’s during the right time and pulling in the correct direction. To defeat a 30G missile, you would obviously need to pull more G’s. Since 11G is limit for sustained G’s for a large number of airframes, with those airframes you would not be able to dodge the 530D in same launch conditions as 7M where you can dodge the 7M

@Ziggy1989

Interesting, but you needed to fly the S4 to conclude it should go up in BR. Right?

My experience with the S4 helps, but my experience also translates to S5 because the S5 is simply a superior version of the S4 therefore i don’t need additional experience with the S5 to conclude it to be as good as the s4 because the S5 is proven factually to be same other than being better.

@Ziggy1989

Your entire argument is based on your own personal experience. Starting the conversation here:

simbadumba:

I told you i dismissed that arguement and we are going to argue based on facts because fact based arguing is what you can’t combat with “user experience” or unreliable sources like “thunder skill”.
Therefore, you ignooring my current correct argument in favor of something i scrapped proves your ignorance. You’re trying to dismiss my current argument because you refuse to recognize the facts i have stated. Again, if this is what you make your assumption on, then your assumptuion is invalid.

@Ziggy1989

The S5 had no issue at 11.7 prior to the S4’s release.

Except the S5 has had the same capability since S4 on launch therefore my fact based argument that is based on mirage 2000 still applies to mirage 2000 s5 being 11.7 even if it was long time ago. Infact its valid previously and its valid now and to you conclude that “s5 had no problem” is another way of just denying an argument without making a counter argument

@Ziggy1989

But now it must be dragged through the controversy because it’s the same jet?

Ofcourse. It has the same capabilities of an airframe that should be 12.0 therefore it should be also a 12.0. BR is based on capability, not some stupid “s4 came in event, it should be 12.0” argument
The argument that something Equal/superior shouldn’t be same br as something equal/inferior is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

[Ziggy1989]

@simbadumba

I dont need to fly the S5 to conclude

Interesting, but you needed to fly the S4 to conclude it should go up in BR. Right?

You’re based this on your 68% win rate.

Your entire argument is based on your own personal experience. Starting the conversation here:

@simbadumba

I have 70% winrate with the mirage 2000c s4. It should be a 12.0 not a 11.7.

Since your entire argument is rooted in personal experience. Why should it now not apply to the S5? The S5 had no issue at 11.7 prior to the S4’s release. But now it must be dragged through the controversy because it’s the same jet?

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Hard evidence. 7M has a max G force of 25G and 530D has max G force of 30G

Except it doesnt matter cause you cant dodge any missile that pulls harder then 16-18G in your plane without Flare or Chaff.

@simbadumba

7M is dodgeable in many situations where 530D is not due to higher G force.

Empty claim without any evidence, i dont take your words seriously in that case.

@simbadumba

with extra 5G’s of maneuvering would mean that the 530D is able to get a kill in a situation where 7M can’t be.

Let me remind you that you’re the one who claimed 5G will not make any difference in practise, stay consistent next time.

@simbadumba

Therefore again, stop with your ad hominem stuff, its against war thunder rules.

İs this some sort of cheap tactic that i dont familiar? İnteresting.

@simbadumba

Additionally, you can’t claim that a scenario is purely theoritical if it can happen during battle.
If the scenario can happen during battle especially reasonably, it is a valid scenario to be used for comparison.

Just because it can happen doesnt mean it will always happen thats why we call it theoritical cause theoritical means it can be, learn the difference

[Panther2995]

My brother have you seen average performance on those planes? You should check it.

[Ziggy1989]

My bad I thought I was responding to him lol. I thought he said that

I’m on my phone hahaha ima delete because I don’t want it to take away from the pint you made

[Panther2995]

Lmao, no worries brother mistakes can happens.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

J35XS should’ve been 13.0 cause i have 64 percent win rate

Wrong because there is no evidence to prove that J35XS could perform effectively at 13.0 because it performs effectively at 10.7. Again, your argument is exaggerated and you’re trying to make my argument seem unreasonable based on non sense exaggerations. Bumping j35xs from 10.7 to 13.0 is not anyhow realistic and j35xs performance at 13.0 is not anyhow related to S4 performance at 12.0 instead of 11.7. Again, i told you to scrap the Winrate based argument because i recognized it as unreliable. Either recognize this and argue against the current facts i have provided or stop talking, if you cant deny the facts i have provided

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Just because it can happen doesnt mean it will always happen thats why we call it theoritical cause theoritical means it can be, learn the difference

Understand that every single specific engagement can be “theoretical” at this depth therefore acting like its solely theoretical and that it doesn’t apply to this game is non sense.
Infact it does not matter wether something is theoretical or not as long as it can happen in the game and it is fact based and reasonable. You’re just trying to shut down my argument by saying “its theoretical so its irrelevant” even though this benefit exists in real batles. And because you can’t argue against the benefit, you would try to argue that i can’t specificy a realistic engagement which proves something because blah blah.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Again, i told you to scrap the Winrate based argument because i recognized it as unreliable

Thats new.

@simbadumba

if you cant deny the facts i have provided

Except i dont see any facts from you but some empty claims buddy.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Thats new.

simbadumba:

Further proof of ignorance because i stated this earlier. Read my arguments fully or do not reply to them at all.

@Panther2995

Except i dont see any facts from you but some empty claims buddy.

I already mentioned facts about the superior maneuverability of the 530D against 7M, the forcekill capability of IRCCM of magic 2 and the fact that F-14 can’t match these forcekill capabilities.
These facts are based on stat card facts.
Are you gonna say that I can’t prove that it’s harder to evade a aim-9b compared to R-73 because the engagement situation would be “theoretical”? This is your argument. If within your argument we can’t prove a clear fact of something that is widely obvious and known, then your argument can’t be used because it doesn’t leave room to prove anything. Therefore, drop the arguement or make it viable for anyone to prove that a stronger missile is indeed stronger or your argument is invalid on basis of not being able to accept a fact.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

as long as it can happen in the game and it is fact based and reasonable.

İf thats the case then R27ER should be buffed even more considering my R27ER’s missed some of the most easy kills ever.

@simbadumba

even though this benefit exists in real batles.

And how many times it does benefit, 20-30 or lets make it 40 if that whats gonna make you happy. As long as you talk based on theoritical scenarios without any hard evidence your claims will mean nothing thats why hard evidences are vital thing in counter arguments.

@simbadumba

And because you can’t argue against the benefit, you would try to argue that i can’t specificy a realistic engagement which proves something because blah blah.

Except thats literally what im doing,lmao.

[Ziggy1989]

Yeah I think we sufficiently examined his reasoning. It’s not stupid, but it’s rooted his average low win rate and for some reason 68% is too high in his mind.

Therefore the jet must go up in BR and all other jets that resemble it that he has not flown.

He will not consider the fact that the S5 was perfectly fine at 11.7 prior and that the issue is over saturation of event S4. He is dead set on increasing both aircrafts BR. He will not consider that active radar missiles are coming and increasing the BR will put them at a great disadvantage. Nor once GJ moves adjust their BR they will leave it permanently potentially screwing up the French tech trees S5.

This is all due to his own belief that he is incapable of achieving a 68% winrate, therefore it must be the jets fault.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

İf thats the case then R27ER should be buffed even more considering my R27ER’s missed some of the most easy kills ever.

Sure, alright. R-27ER is obviously better. Also “r27er missed some of the most easy kills ever” this is a flaw of every single air to air missile and because it is a bug based flaw and not a performance based flaw, its not open for argument. We don’t argue based on bug performance, if we did i could say that the aim-7m belongs to 10.0 because it often flies into ground.
So, the “missing easy kills” argument is invalid if it is not based on true performance of the missile that can be compared to another missile.

@Panther2995

talk based on theoritical scenarios without any hard evidence

Tell me what you want as hard evidence that can reasonably prove this. Tell me exactly what you accept. It has to be consistent for missiles that have huge performance margin, and missiles that have small performance margin yet one being stronger than the other

@Panther2995

Except thats literally what im doing,lmao.

Not in your earlier 20 different replies

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Further proof of ignorance because i stated this earlier. Read my arguments fully or do not reply to them at all.

İ just said thats new which indicates we agreed on something, you good my guy? Seems like you’re loosing your touch.

@simbadumba

I already mentioned facts about the superior maneuverability of the 530D against 7M

Except you’re the one who accepted that 5G will change nothing in practise, i love it when you debunk your own argument.

@simbadumba

forcekill capability of IRCCM of magic 2

Except im the one who mentioned in the first place, are you trying to steal my pen arguments? Lmao.

@simbadumba

and the fact that F-14 can’t match these forcekill capabilities.

F-14 will literally circle around you and kill you easily if he knows whats he’s doing, especially if its a F-14B, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

@simbadumba

Are you gonna say that I can’t prove that it’s harder to evade a aim-9b compared to R-73

Except Aim-9B pulls only 10G while R73 pulls 40G with TVC capabilites and IRCCM its not the same situation if you compare to aim-7M vs 530D, gosh your counter arguments becomes more and more stupid.

@simbadumba

Therefore, drop the arguement or make it viable for anyone to prove that a stronger missile is indeed stronger or your argument is invalid on basis of not being able to accept a fact.

My man you should let go of your ego sometimes and touch some grass while doin it, it will do wonderful for you.

[Nike Ajax]

I think im going to ignore you, ziggy because you refuse to take part in the debate in good faith and everything you are posting now is ignorant to the current debate.

@Ziggy1989

He will not consider the fact that the S5 was perfectly fine at 11.7

I already argued against therefore i did indeed consider it.

@Ziggy1989

He will not consider that active radar missiles are coming and increasing the BR will put them at a great disadvantage.

You’re ignoring the fact that this is completely normal!
A 10.7 plane is in great disadvantange compared to a 11.7 plane
A 12.0 plane is in great disadvantange against a 13.0 plane
Your argument also ignores the fluidity of battle rating.
The mirage s2000 S4 would not be at great disadvantange at 12.0 against any possible platform that would carry active radar missile at 12.0, and the disadvantange is expected to grow when BR’s go higher. Therefore you can’t argue that it is something bad because this is exactly how battle ratings work. You are at disadvantange towards something of higher battle rating and pretending like its a bad thing is non sense stupid argument

[Panther2995]

Wise words.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Except Aim-9B pulls only 10G while R73 pulls 40G with TVC capabilites and IRCCM its not the same situation if you compare to aim-7M vs 530D, gosh your counter arguments becomes more and more stupid.

simbadumba:

Just because it’s not as obvious does not mean that the difference does not exist
This is your exact ignorance, you’re minimizing the difference so that it means nothing even though it means something. In this case, the difference is between wether you can dodge a 7M by pulling max G and not being able to dodge a 530D by pulling max G, so even if it appears statistically small, its extremely relevant on the battelfeild.

@Panther2995

F-14 will literally circle around you and kill you easily if he knows whats he’s doing, especially if its a F-14B, you have no idea what you’re talking about.

simbadumba:

F-14 can kill the mirage if it catches the mirage in a bad situation. The mirage can kill the F-14 if it catches the F-14 in a bad situation
Except the f-14 can force a bad situation on a F-14 because the F-14 physically can’t outrun a mirage 2000 while the F-14 can’t force such situation on mirage solely based on performance and it has to be more about mistake based.
Also, a bad situation for f-14 is ending within engagement envelope of magic 2 irccm quality while a bad situation for mirage would be having to run out of energy or something similar that can’t be forced with a smaller top speed.
The mirage has a slight advantange over the F-14 In being able to force a kill against other aircraft and against the F-14 itself which is why the mirages should be at 12.0.

@Panther2995

My man you should let go of your ego sometimes and touch some grass while doin it, it will do wonderful for you.

If you can’t provide a reasonable request where i ask you to tell me how you want me to prove something that you’re asking for, then don’t argue. If you only talk about “ego” instead of providing the information i asked for (making it impossible for me to prove something), you might aswell not argue at all because that is not debate, it’s just name calling and ignorance.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

this is a flaw of every single air to air missile

Just like Aim-7M cause you cannot dodge that missile without proper notching and countermeasures.

@simbadumba

So, the “missing easy kills” argument is invalid if it is not based on true performance of the missile that can be compared to another missile.

Then 5G difference is also irrevelant because of the reasons i mentioned already.

@simbadumba

Tell me what you want as hard evidence that can reasonably prove this. Tell me exactly what you accept. It has to be consistent for missiles that have huge performance margin, and missiles that have small performance margin yet one being stronger than the other

You’re the one who’s gonna Show me the exact evidences that supports your claim, burden of proof is on you in this case.

[Nike Ajax]

@Panther2995

Just like Aim-7M cause you cannot dodge that missile without proper notching and countermeasures.

simbadumba:

You can dodge the aim-7m absolutely with raw power often at low altitudes so claiming otherwise is misinformation. I would not even need to prove this as a “fact” because this is a commonly known basic thing. However if i feel like it i can install my hdd in my pc and give you video footage.

@Panther2995

Then 5G difference is also irrevelant because of the reasons i mentioned already.

simbadumba:

It is not irrelevant at all becaus when you have to pull 10-11G’s to dodge an aim-7m and your airframe capability maxes around that, you can’t pull more required G’s to dodge the 530Dm making the 530D undodgable in those situations.

@Panther2995

You’re the one who’s gonna Show me the exact evidences that supports your claim, burden of proof is on you in this case.

Tell me what kind of evidence you accept. Don’t tell me to produce evidence if you can’t specify what exactly is considered acceptable that can prove a smaller margin of performance difference.