Doesnt make any difference in practise but thanks for pointing out.
Oh yea i forgot it suppose to pull 60G with TVC, any News on that?
İ can say the same thing for 530D but doesnt prove anything in that case.
It’s not about “huge differnce” statistically. It’s about wether you have a considerable effect on battlefield. A relatively small statistical difference often means life and death when you are on the thin line wether something can be dodged at all or not.
Thats true but in the situations where aim-54 can be notched, it is irrelevant
(remember, we are not talking about situations where notching can be used to compare it to situations where you have to dogde a missile) 54’s are easily dodged and notched and i would ignore them on this argument. You can’t really force a kill with them even someone makes the mistake of not being able to notch due to 54’s low overall G load which almost always allows you to dodge that missile.
Think about this: I can dodge the aim-7m without notching it but F-14 may not be able to dodge a 530D without notching it. Therefore, it allows me to guide my missile into without having to notch, allowing me to kill him, assuming an engagement that is equal at 6km
Arguing about further ranges is less relevant because our argument is based on wether you can force a kill when opposing party can’t notch a missile.
Seems like you keep forgetting when Phoenix came out everyone was force to fly on the deck.
İf F-14 doesnt play for its strenths otherwise you will sitting duck.
İ disagree.
[quote=“MiG_23M, post:2945, topic:1931”]
You’re welcome to elaborate on how this would play out. I already know, and it seems you don’t.
Same for you but i dont think you can.
They aren’t gonna fix it because they are already struggling with the guidance at 40G with the TVC at lower speeds especially, and it should always hit the target in the same situations regardless cuz nothing is dodging 40G’s. Currently just means it will struggle to hit very fast targets at high off-bore from closer ranges and high speeds. (40 degree off-bore launch against closing target when both are going 1.2+ mach).
Magic 2 is not dodge-able from rear aspect within a certain range whereas AIM-9M is and it is also a difference of 5G.
You can also do an exaggerated pitch / roll while maintaining lock and hit the F-14 while dodging the AIM-54.
This is a dumb argument to have when discussing these SARH missiles… and the Phoenix doesn’t count for ARH cuz it just sucks.
I flew the F-14 at the time, and I don’t think anyone was changing how they flew… in fact I think the main reason people were on the deck was due to the F-4J already slinging AIM-7F’s all over the place prior to that.
Such as?
The F-14 has no method of engaging the Mirage 2000 except for staying fast and avoiding a dogfight because it will result in Magic 2 up the butt if he gets slow and needs to extend.
It is universally recognized that 7M’s are rather easy to dodge. People have tried to dodge my 530D’s but with extremely small success.
The 7M is considerably easier to dodge wether you dodge a 530D in an extreme situation or not, in many situations where you can dodge the 7M, you can’t dodge the 530D anyway.
This is distracting of the argument. I often go into bvr against F-14’s with aim-54s. It is possible for me to notch these missiles at medium altitudes and to dodge an aim-7M they fire at medium altitudes, while i can force a 530D kill in a situation where they don’t back off and they have to rely on maneuvering.
tl;dr i can rely on maneuvering to kill F-14 while it can’t do that, otherwise i can force them on defensive and probably shoot a magic up their ass.
@MiG_23M What is your opinion on placing the mirage 2000 S4 & S5 on 12.0?
I see it as reliable.
Wasnt that case when you comparing Python-3 and Magic-2, wonder why did you stop doin it?
Same can be Said for 530D’s.
Except 54’s are not there to force kill its for forcing opponents hand and try to make them mistakes.
You’re doing same thing, you keep claiming you can dodge Aim-7M without notching while it cannot be done against 530D’s without support, i can say the same thing for 530D’s in that case.
Except any effective range becomes revelant in that case.
This is a rule in place because he decided that any missile in a distance where they are notchable are equal. So, the rule is because of him, not me. I recognize that there is difference between the 7M and 530D at distances that allow notching anyway, however if he does not recognize it then eh.
Too bad then.
Personal claims on both sides so it lets cut this part cause we will achieve nothing in this case.
Sustained turn fight for example? You forgot that as well?
Seems like you forgot how to fly with F-14.
Reasonable personal claims vs unreasonable personal claims.
Saying that 530D is as easy to dodge as 7M because you dodged a 530D once is not a valid argument.
It is recognized that the 7M is easier to dodge compared to the 530D in these distance.
What other evidence do you want other than personal accounts?
What about this: You pick the mirage 2000, i will shoot at you with 7M and you will dodge it.
Then at similar launch parameters, i shoot the 530D at you.
We will repeat this through a multitude of situations where you will see that the 5G extra maneuverability is detrimental.
On the other hand people dodged my 530D’s reletivaly easy, personal claims means nothing as i said countless times.
F-14 can also notch your missiles while already sended some phoenix on your way, after that it can easily engage with you and force your hand to sustained dogfight therefore your Super530D argument becomes irrevelant.
According to who? you and Mig? Dont make me laugh please.
Personal claim is personal claim and unless you have hard evidence it will mean nothing, tbh im really bored of these pointless argument.
İ dodged 530D’s countless times so your argument its pretty much means nothing.
Such as kill records, overall performance values? İf you’re gonna play dumb then dont bother to reply please.
Except it will mean nothing cause most of the time i will dodge both missile relatively easy.
If you really wanna mention the ability of f-14 to notch then understand this: I can dodge an aim-54 without having to dodge it, so i can continue my offensive against the f-14 that is defensive while it has to notch to not die from a 530D. If the 530D was as shit as aim-7M, the F-14 could continue its engagement using 7Ms and not need to notch.
The 14 can’t really force a sustained dogfight from a defensive position because it would have to survive against the usage of Magic 2. mirage 2000 would be offensive and it would have enough energy to take a reliable magic 2 shot in its favor. Additionally a gun engagement could possibly be forced depending on the situation.
You still haven’t told me what kind of evidence you would accept so personal evidence is all i can give, however my personal experience is completely truthful and it can be confirmed if you go into a war thunder custom battle with your friend, therefore i wouldn’t be too quick to claim it as false.
Sure you may have dodged the 530D countless times but you’re ignoring the fact that there are situations where you can’t dodge it. I will assume you are lying if you say that you have never died to 530D.
Even if you have dodged the 530D countless times, the 7M is definetly still easier to dodge.
Additionally this is not a black white situation where being able to dodge or not dodge a missile is a static fact.
Even if you can dodge the 530D one situation, you may not be be able to dodge it in another situation.
Also, many dodges of the 530D occured because of a bad launch.
To compare the effectiveness of both missiles, we are going to compare how hard both missiles are to be dodged from a good launch.
Also, if the 530D is stronger despite a bad launch, that should be taken into account.
If this goes too much into non sense, i think we can pull out from personal experiences and look at the facts of which missile is harder to evade where we look at the G forces, acceleration of the missile and overall maneuverability over speed range
I assumed that in another scenario it would go low, however because i would be high, the f-14 would be required to point nose at me to get an aim-7f off at me which would allow me to 1. shoot at him again, forcing him defensive or killing him if he refuses to budge and 2. it would allow me to dodge the 7m again.
And if the f-14 is again unable to get off defensive, im able to close in and shoot from side/tail aspect from a distance where the f-14 can’t prevent the magic 2 from hitting.
This would bring the issue where i’m able to dodge the 7M, and the f-14 is not able to dodge the 530D so the f-14 would die. So much for skill.
Wrong, im talking about a scenario where both sides start from far. However the tomcat is forced into a defensive position because it can’t dodge a 530D the way mirage can dodge a 7M.
Preflaring wont really help at sub 1km especially for an f-14 early
You mentioned aim-54. Therefore the F-14 would have to climb up and engage in BVR to purposefully use the aim-54. This scenario is made by you. It was your idea.
You can’t stop the talk about something you wanted to talk about. You yourself brought the topic of aim-54’s in.’
Why do you assume F-14 will stay high in that case? Tomcat can basically climb to high alt, launch some phoenix from 40-60km’s and lower its altitude where it can easily notch any Sarh missiles, you on the other hand have to stay alert against those ARH missiles.
Which is what any skilled F-14 pilot will do.
Again you’re talking about a theoritical scenario where Tomcat starts is defensive position, what makes you think it will happen like that cause you fired some 530D’s on its way? Dont make me laugh harder then before please.
Which can easily do by just simply preflaring, especially F-14B considering it has hundreds of countermeasures while your Mirage2000 only has 40-50.
Again talking about certain scenarios where Mirage2000 will be on advantage, pointless tbh.
i already stated, cant you read or did you refuse to read?
İ will also assume you’re lying where you can easily dodge Aİm-7M every single time.
Same for Sparrows.
Not really but suit yourself up.
Yeah, Super 530D are pretty gimped rn, despite the claimed around “35KN” speed, it initial acceleration ironically slower than SuperTEMP. But still, for 11.7 BR, I think Super 530D are just okay, it just perform mixed between SuperTEMP and AIM-7F.
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I’m sure it will do fine
The F-14 can try, but the Mirage 2000 can quite easily tighten down and shoot you from across the circle or force you slow in those situations. If not, it is easy to run from someone who has no IRCCM missiles.
I might be rusty, but I know the Mirage 2000 is a formidable opponent and you are tossing it to the side like trash? It’s certainly not something you are going to casually mop.
The another reason why this would be reasonable is because the mirage of 11.7 faces 10.7 where it is able to force a kill against anyone despite their best efforts. F-14 of 11.7 Can’t exactly do this (aim-9h are easily flared, 7M’s can still be maneuvered against even at altitude, you may get lucky with a reversal or have to pull 14 into a dogfight which puts it into a vulnerable position,).
Additionally like kfir canard may be able to run away from it.
It is logical in my opinion that mirages represent capability of 12.0 while f-14a early is more of 11.7 and more friendly towards such aircraft in a downtier.
Mirage at 12.0 would retain it’s combat efficiency while not slaughtering 10.7 planes. It is suitable for 12.0
well we have the “Balanced” Super Etendard. And despite Fox-3 aren’t implemented yet, obviously they wouldn’t even give the gimped version of MICA IR for balance reason (that’s why M2K5F was in the 12.0 in before BR Changes).
But a MF1 with M53-P2 Engine I guess it’s also a welcoming addition.