Just like Aim-7M cause you cannot dodge that missile without proper notching and countermeasures.
Then 5G difference is also irrevelant because of the reasons i mentioned already.
You’re the one who’s gonna Show me the exact evidences that supports your claim, burden of proof is on you in this case.
You can dodge the aim-7m absolutely with raw power often at low altitudes so claiming otherwise is misinformation. I would not even need to prove this as a “fact” because this is a commonly known basic thing. However if i feel like it i can install my hdd in my pc and give you video footage.
It is not irrelevant at all becaus when you have to pull 10-11G’s to dodge an aim-7m and your airframe capability maxes around that, you can’t pull more required G’s to dodge the 530Dm making the 530D undodgable in those situations.
Tell me what kind of evidence you accept. Don’t tell me to produce evidence if you can’t specify what exactly is considered acceptable that can prove a smaller margin of performance difference.
11G
R-73 pulls 40G without TVC, in-game it is underperforming as in real life it pulls up to 60G during motor operation thanks to TVC and then drops to 40G post-burn (as long as there is sufficient airspeed / energy).
A growing populous has already done this
I’m not sure what is being argued as I am hopping into the middle of it. What we know is that the Super 530D is likely underperforming as since it is tail controlled there is a high likelihood that it maneuvers in combined plane. We know the Magic 2 was modified from the Magic 1 to do so, there is no reason not to believe the Super 530D was still maneuvering in single plane when the French had mastered better guidance methods already at the time.
I don’t think I’ve had issues dodging AIM-7M unless I put myself in a position where it is undodgeable, such as going head-on above 100m alt towards a target at closer ranges… which is dumb.
I agree
The Super 530D is superior as far as kinematics in closer ranges go, chaff is required to dodge it without multi-pathing… but that makes all radar missiles kinda poo rn.
@Panther2995 I’m not sure there is anything to discuss here, you two are going back and forth no better than someone wasting their time arguing with Ziggy at the moment. Seems to me neither of you will admit fault here or change your minds.
Except there is huge difference between 30G and 5G in this case and no 5G will practically make no difference if you pass 18G tresshold.
Except F-14 can basically force your hands with Aim-54’s and Aim-7M while you have to notch therefore you flight performance will become irrevelant in that case.
Except in order use benefits of Magic-2’s irccm capabilites you have to sit back on F-14’s ass otherwise he can basically flare it not to mention F-14 can force Mirage on many situations while Mirage has to rely on its initial turning capabilites.
Mirage has one advantage against F-14B while F-14B has multiple ones so its clear how this is gonna end.
İ already answered to this question so im not gonna waste my time again.
530D is considerably harder to dodge than 7M, especially in low to medium altitude situations.
I don’t think an F-14 has ever forced anyones’ hands with those weapons unless they were flying in space for some unknown reasons
Easily done in just a few turns
The F-14 isn’t the person forcing anything in fights against a M2K.
You’re welcome to elaborate on how this would play out. I already know, and it seems you don’t.
I agree, that isn’t obvious to some people?
Doesnt make any difference in practise but thanks for pointing out.
Oh yea i forgot it suppose to pull 60G with TVC, any News on that?
İ can say the same thing for 530D but doesnt prove anything in that case.
It’s not about “huge differnce” statistically. It’s about wether you have a considerable effect on battlefield. A relatively small statistical difference often means life and death when you are on the thin line wether something can be dodged at all or not.
Thats true but in the situations where aim-54 can be notched, it is irrelevant
(remember, we are not talking about situations where notching can be used to compare it to situations where you have to dogde a missile) 54’s are easily dodged and notched and i would ignore them on this argument. You can’t really force a kill with them even someone makes the mistake of not being able to notch due to 54’s low overall G load which almost always allows you to dodge that missile.
Think about this: I can dodge the aim-7m without notching it but F-14 may not be able to dodge a 530D without notching it. Therefore, it allows me to guide my missile into without having to notch, allowing me to kill him, assuming an engagement that is equal at 6km
Arguing about further ranges is less relevant because our argument is based on wether you can force a kill when opposing party can’t notch a missile.
Seems like you keep forgetting when Phoenix came out everyone was force to fly on the deck.
İf F-14 doesnt play for its strenths otherwise you will sitting duck.
İ disagree.
[quote=“MiG_23M, post:2945, topic:1931”]
You’re welcome to elaborate on how this would play out. I already know, and it seems you don’t.
Same for you but i dont think you can.
They aren’t gonna fix it because they are already struggling with the guidance at 40G with the TVC at lower speeds especially, and it should always hit the target in the same situations regardless cuz nothing is dodging 40G’s. Currently just means it will struggle to hit very fast targets at high off-bore from closer ranges and high speeds. (40 degree off-bore launch against closing target when both are going 1.2+ mach).
Magic 2 is not dodge-able from rear aspect within a certain range whereas AIM-9M is and it is also a difference of 5G.
You can also do an exaggerated pitch / roll while maintaining lock and hit the F-14 while dodging the AIM-54.
This is a dumb argument to have when discussing these SARH missiles… and the Phoenix doesn’t count for ARH cuz it just sucks.
I flew the F-14 at the time, and I don’t think anyone was changing how they flew… in fact I think the main reason people were on the deck was due to the F-4J already slinging AIM-7F’s all over the place prior to that.
Such as?
The F-14 has no method of engaging the Mirage 2000 except for staying fast and avoiding a dogfight because it will result in Magic 2 up the butt if he gets slow and needs to extend.
It is universally recognized that 7M’s are rather easy to dodge. People have tried to dodge my 530D’s but with extremely small success.
The 7M is considerably easier to dodge wether you dodge a 530D in an extreme situation or not, in many situations where you can dodge the 7M, you can’t dodge the 530D anyway.
This is distracting of the argument. I often go into bvr against F-14’s with aim-54s. It is possible for me to notch these missiles at medium altitudes and to dodge an aim-7M they fire at medium altitudes, while i can force a 530D kill in a situation where they don’t back off and they have to rely on maneuvering.
tl;dr i can rely on maneuvering to kill F-14 while it can’t do that, otherwise i can force them on defensive and probably shoot a magic up their ass.
@MiG_23M What is your opinion on placing the mirage 2000 S4 & S5 on 12.0?
I see it as reliable.
Wasnt that case when you comparing Python-3 and Magic-2, wonder why did you stop doin it?
Same can be Said for 530D’s.
Except 54’s are not there to force kill its for forcing opponents hand and try to make them mistakes.
You’re doing same thing, you keep claiming you can dodge Aim-7M without notching while it cannot be done against 530D’s without support, i can say the same thing for 530D’s in that case.
Except any effective range becomes revelant in that case.
This is a rule in place because he decided that any missile in a distance where they are notchable are equal. So, the rule is because of him, not me. I recognize that there is difference between the 7M and 530D at distances that allow notching anyway, however if he does not recognize it then eh.
Too bad then.
Personal claims on both sides so it lets cut this part cause we will achieve nothing in this case.
Sustained turn fight for example? You forgot that as well?
Seems like you forgot how to fly with F-14.
Reasonable personal claims vs unreasonable personal claims.
Saying that 530D is as easy to dodge as 7M because you dodged a 530D once is not a valid argument.
It is recognized that the 7M is easier to dodge compared to the 530D in these distance.
What other evidence do you want other than personal accounts?
What about this: You pick the mirage 2000, i will shoot at you with 7M and you will dodge it.
Then at similar launch parameters, i shoot the 530D at you.
We will repeat this through a multitude of situations where you will see that the 5G extra maneuverability is detrimental.
On the other hand people dodged my 530D’s reletivaly easy, personal claims means nothing as i said countless times.
F-14 can also notch your missiles while already sended some phoenix on your way, after that it can easily engage with you and force your hand to sustained dogfight therefore your Super530D argument becomes irrevelant.
According to who? you and Mig? Dont make me laugh please.
Personal claim is personal claim and unless you have hard evidence it will mean nothing, tbh im really bored of these pointless argument.
İ dodged 530D’s countless times so your argument its pretty much means nothing.
Such as kill records, overall performance values? İf you’re gonna play dumb then dont bother to reply please.
Except it will mean nothing cause most of the time i will dodge both missile relatively easy.
If you really wanna mention the ability of f-14 to notch then understand this: I can dodge an aim-54 without having to dodge it, so i can continue my offensive against the f-14 that is defensive while it has to notch to not die from a 530D. If the 530D was as shit as aim-7M, the F-14 could continue its engagement using 7Ms and not need to notch.
The 14 can’t really force a sustained dogfight from a defensive position because it would have to survive against the usage of Magic 2. mirage 2000 would be offensive and it would have enough energy to take a reliable magic 2 shot in its favor. Additionally a gun engagement could possibly be forced depending on the situation.
You still haven’t told me what kind of evidence you would accept so personal evidence is all i can give, however my personal experience is completely truthful and it can be confirmed if you go into a war thunder custom battle with your friend, therefore i wouldn’t be too quick to claim it as false.
Sure you may have dodged the 530D countless times but you’re ignoring the fact that there are situations where you can’t dodge it. I will assume you are lying if you say that you have never died to 530D.
Even if you have dodged the 530D countless times, the 7M is definetly still easier to dodge.
Additionally this is not a black white situation where being able to dodge or not dodge a missile is a static fact.
Even if you can dodge the 530D one situation, you may not be be able to dodge it in another situation.
Also, many dodges of the 530D occured because of a bad launch.
To compare the effectiveness of both missiles, we are going to compare how hard both missiles are to be dodged from a good launch.
Also, if the 530D is stronger despite a bad launch, that should be taken into account.
If this goes too much into non sense, i think we can pull out from personal experiences and look at the facts of which missile is harder to evade where we look at the G forces, acceleration of the missile and overall maneuverability over speed range
I assumed that in another scenario it would go low, however because i would be high, the f-14 would be required to point nose at me to get an aim-7f off at me which would allow me to 1. shoot at him again, forcing him defensive or killing him if he refuses to budge and 2. it would allow me to dodge the 7m again.
And if the f-14 is again unable to get off defensive, im able to close in and shoot from side/tail aspect from a distance where the f-14 can’t prevent the magic 2 from hitting.
This would bring the issue where i’m able to dodge the 7M, and the f-14 is not able to dodge the 530D so the f-14 would die. So much for skill.
Wrong, im talking about a scenario where both sides start from far. However the tomcat is forced into a defensive position because it can’t dodge a 530D the way mirage can dodge a 7M.
Preflaring wont really help at sub 1km especially for an f-14 early
You mentioned aim-54. Therefore the F-14 would have to climb up and engage in BVR to purposefully use the aim-54. This scenario is made by you. It was your idea.
You can’t stop the talk about something you wanted to talk about. You yourself brought the topic of aim-54’s in.’