Mirage 2000 Thread : Variants, performance, characteristics and sources

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Ziggy1989

The harriers have a crap ton of CM, F-18 radar, Aim-9Ms and Aim-120s.

These are the benefits of the harrier. But the S4&S5 can reliably exploit the weakness of the harrier which is forcing a dogfight or a rear irccm missile shot due to harrier low speed, additionally the aim-120’s can be countered by flying low and notching + hard maneuvering while aim-9m’s are countermeasure dependant.
The mirage 2000 S4 is able to force a kill against the harrier in a wider variety of situations, especially one of those that are common at top tier like tail chase irccm shots while harrier can’t force a kill against the mirage using tail chase missile shots because it can’t catch a mirage based on speed.
A mirage can in most situations force a kill against harrier while harrier has to exploit mistakes of a mirage. Therefore the 9M is not as considerable of threat as the magic 2.

Ofcourse the harrier is going to retain some capacity against the Mirages which is exactly a thing that should be so of aircraft that are both 12.0 You both have capacity against each other.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

If a missile can exploit a weakness that other missile can’t exploit, the exploitative missile is stronger. It doesn’t matter wether you blame them for a skill issue or not, the exploitative missile is superior regardless because you can get a kill in a place where other missile can’t

You basically cant get kills with both missiles in same scenario, why do you keep throwing bs claims?

@simbadumba

skill issue” is stupid.

Not as stupid as your arguments tbh.

@simbadumba

No human is skilled enough to never die to radar missiles INCLUDING YOU so don’t pretend like that it the case.

Skill issue, gid gud.

@simbadumba

Infact you can. I have often fired an aim-7m at someone and even when they did not notch the missile they were able to outmaneuver it. Stop spreading misinformation in favor of your arguments right now, its completely stupid.

Any evidence to back it up? Let me guess you dont have it.

İ also fired countless R27ER’s to enemy plane that didnt tried to dodge properly yet my missiles missed, so buff for R27ER when?

@simbadumba

Except your missiles superior flight performance allows you to kill someone with a skill issue.

Exactly, anyone who has skill issue will die to both missiles regardless of the situation.

Thanks for proving my point.

@simbadumba

Except battles consist of situations where you can’t always defeat the missile therefore performance when unable to notch is highly relevant.

İf you’re in a position where you cant dodge SARH missiles then it will not matter if its R27ER or Aim-7M.

@simbadumba

Many of our kills on 530D come from situatios where 7M could not have made the kill.

Another personal claim without evidence cause accırding to my experience Aim-7M works much better then Super530D and considering i have more experience on Mirage families then you my claim should be the true one, right?

@simbadumba

Again, your argument is invalid so if i was you i would stop using it.

Lmao.

@simbadumba

have debunked it in several counter arguments and instead of you counter arguing my counter arguments you just have repeated the counter argued statement which is invalid.

Safe to say you debunked nothing but showed us how clueless you are when it comes to high tier gameplay but go on keep thinking like that if thats whats gonna make you happy.

@simbadumba

You can’t ignore the missiles ability to exploit a skill issue

Never did it once, in fact i stated 2 times that R27ER has superior flight performance compare to Aim-7M.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

Not as stupid as your arguments tbh.

simbadumba:

Calling my arguments stupid while not being able to argue against them without using logical fallacies or ignorance is cringe.

@Panther2995

Skill issue, gid gud.

simbadumba:

Saying “skill issue” as your argument is also stupid. A clear majority of radar missile kills come from exploiting a skill issue, because your missiles arent effective in a notch. Therefore if you can exploit situations where a kill is possible with one missile but not with another, that other missile is worse.
Understand that missile efficiency comes from comparing the situations where one missile can kill their target yet the another one can’t. Evaluating performance of missiles in notch is irrelevant because you cant kill players in notch with either missile. Again, since your kills come from exploiting a skill issue you are going to analyze the missile’s capability of kill players in situations where a kill is possible.

[Ziggy1989]

@simbadumba

Calling my arguments stupid while not being able to argue against them without using logical fallacies or ignorance is cringe.

They are not stupid; they are just based in flying one event Mirage and doing sort of ok in it.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Ziggy1989

They are not stupid; they are just based on flying one event Mirage and doing sort of ok in it.

“flying on one event mirage”
Again this is proof of confirmation bias. You’re ignoring everything that i have said that disproves your view. I have provided Seasoned and reasonable arguments that you haven’t been able to counter with any logic therefore you to ignore the arguments that you can’t counter is ignorance and your opinion is based on bias.

[joze5]

@simbadumba

Mirage 2000 S4 should be 12.0 mirage 2000 S5 should be 12.0

Only with 4 Magic 2

[Ziggy1989]

Only the 5F gets 4x unless they added more and I missed that.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@joze5

Only with 4 Magic 2

Radar missiles of 530D are effective in battles therefore they are going to be included in evaluaton of battle rating. Additionally the S4 can’t carry 4x magic 2. Even then, that does not matter because you aren’t replacing the additional effect of 530D with a magic 2, you are just settling for the magic 2’s effect.
They are both equal of 12.0, however your loadout defines what kind of situations you can engage in.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Calling my arguments stupid while not being able to argue against them without using logical fallacies or ignorance is cringe.

Panther2995:

Except i did it countless times yet you kept ignoring, safe to say another skill issue from you.

@Ziggy1989

Only the 5F gets 4x

5F already does have 4 Magic-2 options.

[Ziggy1989]

@simbadumba

“flying on one event mirage”
Again this is proof of confirmation bias. You’re ignoring everything that i have said that disproves your view. I have provided Seasoned and reasonable arguments that you haven’t been able to counter with any logic therefore you to ignore the arguments that you can’t counter is ignorance and your opinion is based on bias.

I am not biased I have every nation, and love them equally.

I am trying to get you to see how your position is rooted in only playing a single jet for a short time during its release and biggest hype. Where it is currently oversaturating the BR and causing instability.

People will stop playing it and your winrate will return to its average. This is something that always happens when a new jet comes and everyone has it.

You cannot reasonably play a jet for a short time, declare it go up in BR and also anything that looks like it that you never flown before. Based entirely on… a 68% win rate…

[Panther2995]

@Ziggy1989

You cannot reasonably play a jet for a short time, declare it go up in BR and also anything that looks like it that you never flown before. Based on… a 68% win rate.

Very good point.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

Except i did it countless times yet you kept ignoring, safe to say another skill issue from you.

Ziggy1989:

I didn’t ignore anything. I took your “notching” argument into account, told you why its invalid (because radar missile kills aren’t done in notch and you evaluate performance of missile in situations that result in the kill of hostile aircraft) and you haven’t had any real counter argument other than “skill issue”. This isn’t a valid counter arguement and it is pretty obvious that you can’t counter argue against anything. You can only blame of me being ignorant even though i reply to every single point you make with a seasoned counter argument.

Since your opinion of the mirage 2000 being 11.7 is based on words “skill issue” and ignorance, i think your opinion can’t be taken seriously in this war thunder post.

@Ziggy1989

I am not biased I have every nation, and love them equally.

Your bias can exist despite having all nations unlocked.

@Ziggy1989

I am trying to get you to see how your position is rooted in only playing a single jet for a short time

Except my position is rooted on factual performance of airframe and its weapons in my arguments instead of sole personal experience. Your claim otherwise is ignorance.

@Ziggy1989

This is something that always happens when a new jet comes and everyone has it.

The reason new jets have strong battle rating is because they are top of the line jets that don’t have any jets above them in battle rating. This isn’t the issue with mirages as of right now.

@Ziggy1989

Based entirely on… a 68% win rate…

Your ignorance again is showing because you ignored every fact based argument where i have proved you wrong that includes facts about missile performance that you can read on statcard, force kill zones and IRCCM application

It’s pretty obvious that both of you like the mirage 2000 as an airframe and like playing it, you have exceptional KD ratios and you would be unhappy if the BR went from 11.7 to 12.0
You have bias because of your emotional liking of the airframe. Most people don’t like seeing a plane that they like go up in BR wether its performing too well or not. In fact you probably don’t give a shit about wether it performs too well or not, you just want it to be 11.7 because thats favorable.

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

This isn’t a valid counter arguement and it is pretty obvious that you can’t counter argue against anything. You can only blame of me being ignorant even though i reply to every single point you make with a seasoned counter argument.

And where is your proper counter argument except talking about theoritical situations and claims without any backup? Safe to say your argument points are also irrevelant.

@simbadumba

Since your opinion of the mirage 2000 being 11.7 is based on words “skill issue” and ignorance, i think your opinion can’t be taken seriously in this war thunder post.

Actually its based on my personal experience and general performance records on Thunderskill, not to mention i have both S5 and 5F and played with them countless times against top tier planes(which im still doing with 5F) i can easily say that your opinion shouldnt matter anything in this case.

[Ziggy1989]

@simbadumba

I have 70% winrate with the mirage 2000c s4. It should be a 12.0 not a 11.7.

This is the premise of your argument.

A 68% win rate is too good in your opinion and must go up. Not just the S4 but also another jet you never played.

If you want to make an argument about the S4, have at it. But no one was crying about the S5 until everyone got the S4.

You are trying to raise the BR of one aircraft and use that as a pretext to raise another in which you never flown. But you want to call us bias?

[Panther2995]

As i Said before if he’s personal experience should be the only factor then J35XS should be 13.0 in this case.

Cause my personal J35XS performance is much better then his Mirage2000 S4 despite bein inferior plane in almost every category.

Any sane person can see how stupid is that argument.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

And where is your proper counter argument except talking about theoritical situations and claims without any backup? Safe to say your argument points are also irrevelant.

simbadumba:

The situations are not “theoretical”, they are real situations that happen during the battle and you can easily verify this by trying to dodge a 530D and 7M in same conditions where a kill is permitted for 530D but not for 7M. The fact that you can confirm what i said ingame makes them factually bulletproof.

@Panther2995

Actually its based on my personal experience and general performance records on Thunderskill

Your personal experience shows you having exceptional KD ratio in the mirage therefore there is no indication of the mirage 2000 being “average” for 11.7. It is definetly and absolutely strong.

@Ziggy1989

This is the premise of your argument.

Wrong. You are choosing this as my premise of my argument because you can claim “your data bad” against it. You are ignoring my primary argument that is based on facts because you can’t defeat a fact.
Infact i choose what is the premise of my argument. Lets scrap the winrate argument. There, i don’t care.
Argue against my fact based arguments if you can :), its the only arguments you can argue against right now.

@Ziggy1989

You are trying to raise the BR of one aircraft and use that as a pretext to raise another in which you never flown. But you want to call us bias?

This is because the mirage S5 is technically superior in all ways to S4 therefore there is no fact based reason for it to be below something that is inferior lmao
Again, this is a fact based argument S5 is a full upgrade of S4 and fact based comparison of capabilities prove that there is no capability of S5 that makes it worse than S4 therefore it shouldn’t be below S4 in br. Again, your argument is as if the S4 should be raised but S5 not shows your emotional bias and liking towards the S5 because you want a better aircraft to be less in BR.

I dont need to fly the S5 to conclude based on facts that the S5 is not worse than S4 in capability relevant to battlerating, lmao. your quality of arguments is lame.

There, this is proof that the difference between S4 and S5 is the fact that S5 has 60% more countermeasures than S4 and it is otherwise same

https://wiki.warthunder.com/Mirage_2000C-S4
https://wiki.warthunder.com/Mirage_2000C-S5
Any objection to this is ignorance and further proof of ignorance and bias which neither of you lack

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

The situations are not “theoretical”, they are real situations that happen during the battle and you can easily verify this by trying to dodge a 530D and 7M in same conditions where a kill is permitted for 530D but not for 7M. The fact that you can confirm what i said ingame makes them factually bulletproof.

Then Show me hard evidence, we started this conversation 1.5 hour ago yet i didnt saw any evidence from you,only claims and claims.

Like i Said you’re just talking about personal claims and theoritical scenarios.

@simbadumba

Your personal experience shows you having exceptional KD ratio in the mirage therefore there is no indication of the mirage 2000 being “average” for 11.7. It is definetly and absolutely strong.

My personal performance on many planes are much higher then average performance on general thats why i dont bring my personal service record into situation cause individual experiences doesnt mean shit, if that was the case then J35XS should’ve been 13.0 cause i have 64 percent win rate and 6.8 K/D ratio in that plane while general service record on J35XS is nothing special.

[S-200VE_Vega]

@Panther2995

Then Show me hard evidence, we started this conversation 1.5 hour ago yet i didnt saw any evidence from you,only claims and claims.

Hard evidence. 7M has a max G force of 25G and 530D has max G force of 30G. 7M is dodgeable in many situations where 530D is not due to higher G force. Situations where the 7M barely missed due to maneuvering but that would be attainable with extra 5G’s of maneuvering would mean that the 530D is able to get a kill in a situation where 7M can’t be.

simbadumba:
[/quote]

@Panther2995

J35XS should be 13.0 cause i have 64 percent win rate

Another ignorant argument where you’re trying to over exaggerate what i’m saying. I never claimed that the S4 should be maximum highest possible tier, and based on the argument, is j35XS is over performing it would not go to 13.0
Therefore again, stop with your ad hominem stuff, its against war thunder rules.

Additionally, you can’t claim that a scenario is purely theoritical if it can happen during battle.
If the scenario can happen during battle especially reasonably, it is a valid scenario to be used for comparison.

It is a widely known fact that the 7M missile can be dodged by pulling G’s that an airframe (for example mig-29) can pull. You can defeat a 25G missile without breaking your wings. However, in a similar scenario (thick air, low altitude, same range of starting the shot, eg 5km), the 530D is extremely hard to defeat in same launch conditions. the 7M is defeatable by pulling 11G’s during the right time and pulling in the correct direction. To defeat a 30G missile, you would obviously need to pull more G’s. Since 11G is limit for sustained G’s for a large number of airframes, with those airframes you would not be able to dodge the 530D in same launch conditions as 7M where you can dodge the 7M

@Ziggy1989

Interesting, but you needed to fly the S4 to conclude it should go up in BR. Right?

My experience with the S4 helps, but my experience also translates to S5 because the S5 is simply a superior version of the S4 therefore i don’t need additional experience with the S5 to conclude it to be as good as the s4 because the S5 is proven factually to be same other than being better.

@Ziggy1989

Your entire argument is based on your own personal experience. Starting the conversation here:

simbadumba:

I told you i dismissed that arguement and we are going to argue based on facts because fact based arguing is what you can’t combat with “user experience” or unreliable sources like “thunder skill”.
Therefore, you ignooring my current correct argument in favor of something i scrapped proves your ignorance. You’re trying to dismiss my current argument because you refuse to recognize the facts i have stated. Again, if this is what you make your assumption on, then your assumptuion is invalid.

@Ziggy1989

The S5 had no issue at 11.7 prior to the S4’s release.

Except the S5 has had the same capability since S4 on launch therefore my fact based argument that is based on mirage 2000 still applies to mirage 2000 s5 being 11.7 even if it was long time ago. Infact its valid previously and its valid now and to you conclude that “s5 had no problem” is another way of just denying an argument without making a counter argument

@Ziggy1989

But now it must be dragged through the controversy because it’s the same jet?

Ofcourse. It has the same capabilities of an airframe that should be 12.0 therefore it should be also a 12.0. BR is based on capability, not some stupid “s4 came in event, it should be 12.0” argument
The argument that something Equal/superior shouldn’t be same br as something equal/inferior is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

[Ziggy1989]

@simbadumba

I dont need to fly the S5 to conclude

Interesting, but you needed to fly the S4 to conclude it should go up in BR. Right?

You’re based this on your 68% win rate.

Your entire argument is based on your own personal experience. Starting the conversation here:

@simbadumba

I have 70% winrate with the mirage 2000c s4. It should be a 12.0 not a 11.7.

Since your entire argument is rooted in personal experience. Why should it now not apply to the S5? The S5 had no issue at 11.7 prior to the S4’s release. But now it must be dragged through the controversy because it’s the same jet?

[Panther2995]

@simbadumba

Hard evidence. 7M has a max G force of 25G and 530D has max G force of 30G

Except it doesnt matter cause you cant dodge any missile that pulls harder then 16-18G in your plane without Flare or Chaff.

@simbadumba

7M is dodgeable in many situations where 530D is not due to higher G force.

Empty claim without any evidence, i dont take your words seriously in that case.

@simbadumba

with extra 5G’s of maneuvering would mean that the 530D is able to get a kill in a situation where 7M can’t be.

Let me remind you that you’re the one who claimed 5G will not make any difference in practise, stay consistent next time.

@simbadumba

Therefore again, stop with your ad hominem stuff, its against war thunder rules.

İs this some sort of cheap tactic that i dont familiar? İnteresting.

@simbadumba

Additionally, you can’t claim that a scenario is purely theoritical if it can happen during battle.
If the scenario can happen during battle especially reasonably, it is a valid scenario to be used for comparison.

Just because it can happen doesnt mean it will always happen thats why we call it theoritical cause theoritical means it can be, learn the difference