I think making it so AI bleed the tickets slower is enough.
Air realistic battles should be able to be influenced by all aircraft not just dedicated fighter aircraft. The job of a fighter is to defend friendly bombers/attackers (so engage hostile fighters) and destroy hostile attackers before they can influence the tickets in a significant way.
That rarely happens. Its all about capturing and defending the objectives.
Please realize that in realistic conditions, it isn’t usually the pilots on spot who decide if a battle is lost or continued.
Simple, there are Ps trying to stop your Ps. You seem to think all action vs other players is direct. In naval battles, you can sink the convoy and win (and rightly so!) or keep killing enemy players and lose. Same applies here.
This is the brutal reality of this game! Everytime you try a new unit you get punched in the face until you learn the lessons and find your way!
Well it should be direct like in ground which is litterly what ive been trying to say, im not trying to say air rb needs a whole new system, i either want air rb to be more PvP or make another game mode for air that only involves trying to kill the enemy players like in ground rb, idk if u even read my post lmao???
and back in the days all action was direct, gaijin have litterly made it so people choose to go for bases before they even try to save their teammates or kill an enemy that is stalling out, AGAIN this should say a lot about current state of air rb :)
No offence but in all means i can see that u are playing A LOT of arcade, so no wonder u gave me these answers, u dont really seem to understand me or what my point is. I think u have to play air rb a lot more to actually see the problem and understand it, but feel free to have ur opinion :D
YES but in the end how do u win? either cap the points and win by tickets or kill the enemy, u dont have people running around killing AIs or doing other stuff, u either cap and win on tickets or kill the enemy team fast enough so they dont have enough spawn points to spawn in again. And yeah u are correct about what a fighters job is but come on man open ur eyes thats not how air rb is and it have never been that way hence why i have said multiple times in this discussion ADD ANOTHER MODE TO AIR like another guy said…
People litterly rush to the base, full commit head on or go back to base and J out. How is that protecting each other? How is that teamwork? How is that even fun???
Killing AI and bases is the equivalent of capping a point in air rb. Sure those aircraft bombing stuff COULD attack enemy players but they won’t because they aren’t optimized for it and in air rb you only get one spawn so of course people are going to do what their aircraft is suited to the best.
If you want dedicated pvp you can enter tournaments and custom battles.
If you haven’t noticed warthunder teams don’t really support each other no matter the game mode. There are some anomalies in my experience notably soviet 9.3+. Adding a pure fighter gamemode won’t fix that. Like most games, warthunder gives immediate incentive for the individual to do well (think of the ‘aircraft destroyed’ or ‘target destroyed’ text). If they have to sacrifice a teammate to get one more kill they will do it. Even I have done it.
People head on in dedicated fighters as well. This isn’t exclusive to strike aircraft just that they do it more often because that’s basically their only defence. If they fail to shoot down the enemy fighter in the head on then 9 times out of 10 they are dead.
People J-ing out over bases isn’t common enough to be an issue.
I find it intriguing that you are complaining about matches ending early due to ticket bleed from ground pounders yet if you have played air rb (jets specifically) the massive majority of matches end due to entire team wipeouts or one or two enemies left (with a massive number disadvantage) and someone strafes a handful of ground targets to end the game, which is a non issue.
Seeing this thread as a whole you are right in certain aspects, but imho you come to the wrong conclusion, at least partially.
The game just followed the money - and if masses of new players (happy to spend money for overpriced pixels) see Air RB just as a low skill level requiring grinding mode - you get exactly this mess.
The problem is imho not a game problem, it is a player problem. And it is not a PvP or PvE problem, it is a balance problem.
Even in the old days (i have an old inactive account with 200+ days in Air RB on top of this one) the main driver for most people to play Air RB was the passion for flying.
You might agree that flying around BR 4.0 - 6.0 was (despite some balancing issues) marked by fights with highly skilled enemies as most of the players knew what to do. The higher in BR you played, the more just pure performance aspects were decisive - and skill became less relevant.
But you had also a hell of highly skilled PvE players which knew how PvP and the game itself worked - just think at fmt3 in his B-29 or this Oberon guy in his Il-10, a pain to fight them.
The game itself allowed all passionate pilots to contribute in all plane classes - as long as they were willing to learn, to adapt and to improve.
Your example with the F-104 being untouchable can be easily replaced with a Wyvern in a downtier.
And i fully agree that the implementation of this ai plane and respawning bases nonsense were a main course of the downfall of Air RB as they altered the game play.
I mean on a hell of maps you are forced to kill ai planes in order to stop or slowing down the ticket bleed and the impact of base bombers became borderline useless due to the missing win condition “airfield kill”.
The already mentioned 16 vs 16 nonsense plus premium spam are just a symptom of the illness of Air RB - the mode needs a complete overhaul.
No offense, but claiming
I dont really care how gaijin would fix this
and
all i want is a game mode when its pretty much players trying to kill players in order to win…
is pointless as just expecting changes without making clear proposals / suggestions or asking for a TDM mode (despite we have already a TDM game play in most of the matches) is not really comprehensible.
I share your view that it is often hard to understand how people are able to enjoy playing Air RB despite the current state of Air RB, but judging others solely based on own views is imho the wrong way.
Depending on individual goals, Air RB requires some efforts to create a mix of fun and challenge for long-term players as they are forced to find niches which allows them to enjoy Air RB.
The old forum is full with highly valuable suggestions to improve Air RB, but it seems like that gaijin is too focused on statistics or income projections to consider them.
As a summary:
Yes, Air RB needs an overhaul in order to restore the “attractiveness” for long term players focused on the passion of flying, but without considering the needs of the majority of players (grinding, earning SLs for Ground RB) the match results are mostly just reduced to random events.
As the majority of matches are decided by the amount of pilots flying planes optimized to kill other planes vs the amount of non-pilots flying planes optimized for CAS / Ground RB - you might think about of an increase of the rather poor economy of Ground RB to the level of Air RB as most effective first step.
I mean Ground RB players (if they are dedicated tankers) are forced to become part-time pilots in order to defend their tanks or kill other tanks - but seeing the the rather low efforts to score SLs/RPs in Air RB it is not really surprising that they use the better income source of base bombing; so by giving them the opportunity to gain similar income in Ground RB (why not implementing bases in Ground RB?) they might play in the mode they actually enjoy…
Have a good one!
PS: You might agree that formatting longer texts is a very easy way to make them much more convenient to read… :-)
Destroying bases doesnt really do anything tho? So how is that equivalent to capping points in ground? Capping a point will atleast bleed some tickets which can help u win in the end. Destroying a base doesnt? It doesnt change anything…my point again is u dont understand what im talking about because u havent played air rb for as long as me and defiently not as much too…
Tournament is limited to what planes to play and u can usually just pick 4-5 of them, but thx to ur lack of experiance u dont really seem to understand that, and its also maximum of 4 players on each team, i want a game mode for air which have dedicated pvp just like ground rb :)
Also another thing u said how players are playing stuff that arent optimized for killing enemy fighters, explain then why people in the F5C which is arguebly the best 10.3 out there as a figher and the F4S which has one of the best weapon loadouts for its br and even better than some 11.7/12.0s are still choosing to go bomb and not giving a single F about killing enemy players or saving teamamtes, beofore mixed games got added did u know the average win ratio of american teams between 9.0 all the way up to 12.0? it was BELOW 50% now how is that possbible do u think, players barely had 1KpG why? Simple they just bombed and then boom dead. This is not how air rb was OR SHOULD BE. again u have to play air rb much more to actually understand what im talking about :)
Yeah i agree with ur first point how this mess started u are 100% right about that and i also think as long as gaijin are making money out of it and more people are joining war thunder every day they wont really bother.
I think we all know ground rb is the most popular game mode, air is just there to either play something legendary like mig29, f14 or f16, hence why they are currently the most played air vehicle if we dont count premium planes. Other than that i think people are just playing air to grind stuff mainly to use it in ground as CAS. Which is why i think air needs a new game mode for PvP where people actually play air like the old days, specially 7.0-9.0 old days.
But i seriously think u are wrong in how skills become less relevant the higher u went.
I think there is a good reason why majority of prop mains struggle in jets and why majority of jet mains struggle in props, its different type of skills. Skill defiently doesnt become less relevant it changes…some people can adapt some cant ;)
Now i know another guy in this thread said that i should just go play tournaments but its 4v4 and u are limted to what plane to play… i dont really care if its 12v12 again or 16v16 but i seriously do want a more PvP focused game mode for air rb.
It does bleed tickets. Not a lot but it does. Just played a 10.3 match in a fast strike aircraft. Reached a base before anything happened . 200 tickets for a destroyed base.
Yea and they are all fighters. What’s the issue? I though you wanted a fighter only game.
You have to capture the points other wise you loose. PvP is simply a side affect of player competing to capture those points. Points are part of the game mode just like how AI and bases are. Avoid them and you loose.
Of course how would you know with less than 15,000 battles in ground rb /s
If you are in a fighter hunting other players in air rb you already playing dedicated pvp. Some teammates aren’t and that’s fine. You can’t force what you want onto other players.
Because they are new players learning how to play air rb (the equivalent in ground rb would be flanking in a slow heavy tank) or they are bots. Due to the lower skill ceiling bombing is a much safer option than dogfighting. Most jet aircraft can bomb effectively.
Just like how can’t force a teammate to help repair or push an enemy in ground rb, you can’t force a teammate to help you in a dogfight. This is what I was saying earlier, the game incentives that YOU do the best. If you can reliably dogfight why would you go after the other fighter aircraft when strike aircraft are easier to kill? If you can reliably bomb stuff then why should you risk your neck to help a teammate in a dogfight when you can bomb one more base?
Thunderskill is a flawed data source. The samples are incomplete so I won’t take that as an argument, especially since americans are almost always on both teams.
This is air rb though. This has almost always been air rb. You do what you want to do even if its at the expense of your teammates. You owe nothing to them, they owe nothing to you. You want to bomb, bomb. You want to dogfight, do it. Air rb doesn’t revolve around fighter aircraft.
Right so insinuating I’m unskilled simply because I disagree with you is not a real argument fyi. Repeating it over and over doesn’t make it any more impactful you know. Go after my points instead that will get better results and display a higher level of intelligence and good faith.
All of this is really a non-issue. No game is decided by people only bombing in air rb, its decided by decimating the enemy team then bombing if a handful are left over. The real problem arises with new players being able to buy their way to jets as they contribute nothing to the team.
Bombing bases does not bleed tickets, killing players and killing AIs does.
Again u did not really read what my opinion was about making a air rb mode was, tournament is not the answer and ive already told u why.
First of all i never said thunderskill so i dont know where u got that from i got other sources but yes thunderskill is one of them but i have others and they are pretty accurate. And i said before we got mixed games, i know we have we have america on both sides but i clearly said before, read again if u have trouble reading :)
And no air rb have not been alike this always like u said, again u lack of experiance is really showing off here…again.
And games are pretty much decided by which team bomb the most, the more people that are focused on bombing the less players u have on ur team focusing on killing the enemy fighers, people that are bombing are litterly free kills.
And i never insulted u…u took it as an insult which is a YOU problem, people get offended by the truth most of the time, not really my problem. As i said u took as an insult which is obviously ur problem, i cant control ur feelings.
But yes respecfully i do seriously agree with some of the stuff u say and we simply have different opinions of this whole mess with air rb, which is totally fine. Dont wanna start any serious shit on the forums since im usually not on here that often except for now with this problem and i want this thread to be serious but again i think we all can agree on that we are just sharing our opinions, no rights or wrongs here imo :D
lol I rarely see bots in air RB.
As for your claim
Air RB has never been purely PVP, there have been zombers since 2013 in the historical air mode.
Oh u see them a lot around 9.7-11.3 for a good reason too, a lot of premium planes around that br
I see bombers, but they’re always real players.
Bots can’t get to bases before real players.
It’s possible to code it, but the method of consistently getting to a base before all others is applying racing game logic to War Thunder
Never said that they do, u can simply tell by the stat card and how they always fly around afk at high ALT, i mean i see plenty of 1000 deaths and only 10 kills and like 1000 games. Should be enough. Plus gaijin have actually banned a lot of those bot accounts, or so they say now if its true or not is a different story. But u dont really see a lot of bombers at those brs i mention its mostly attacker or fighters that can carry a lot of bombs
Yeah, and I’m saying I rarely see them.
Bot behavior is the easiest thing to spot.
Yea idk tbh, its been a problem for a while, a lot of complains too. So idk maybe ur missing something, no ide
Probably coding the bots better so its harder for people to spot them…but just look at the stat card and they always have the privacy name