It would make it more usefull and the after pen damage would be better since the M833 gets eaten by everything inside a tank (hit a fueltank-gone, hit turret basket-gone, afterpen spall-nonexistent) if added would considering moving it up to 12.3. And almost forgot about new BMPT’s they eat M833 for breakfast one centered shot from side does little to no damage.
Whats your thoughts?
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I’ve seen enough, all American vehicles with decent ish rounds need to be lowered by 0.3 BR.
The proof is self evident.
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Yes if they give the HSTV/L XM885 with the right 372mm of pen.
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Isn’t it HSTV-L not HSTV/L or am I being brain dead
It is HSTV-L and not HSTV/L
I’m pretty sure the autoloader used for the AGS wasn’t made for the M900 round. Unlike other 105mm rounds, M900 is really long.
That being said, M833 in-game has a flat base pen of 392mm and in reality the the penetration is almost 100mm more.
Last but not least, Gaijin can at least send the AGS back to 11.3 where it rightfully belongs with the event Merkava Mk3D.
In no universe is the AGS the same BR along with HSTVL and RDFLT.
Debatable because there not a huge difference in size between m900 and m833 (which was never intended to be fired from ags)
Not sure if this is verified or not but the M900 round is newer than M833. So there’s increased pressure inside the gun which the AGS wasn’t cleared for. I always thought the rounds were different in length or something, it’s the autoloader I think, the cannon itself is capable of firing the M900 round.
That being said, M833 buff would solve this issue since it’s the most realistic change Gaijin could add to WT. It’s barely stronger than M774 and could use a buff.
Sry I misspell HSTV-L bc / looks more natural lol.
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1990 revised requirements for the AGS competition do say compatibility with M900 and any possible successor is required. The LPT (gun) and Ares Autoloader were offered for export and was stated to have full compatibility with 105mm ammunition family. They were also later adapted to the Stryker MGS albeit modified but can’t find anything saying exactly what changed.
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Based on the AGS requirements doc, the gun + autoloader were designed to fire the “new family” of KE 105mm ammo and explicitly required compatibility with successor rounds. That realistically includes M900. I see that the pressure-limit reason doesn’t really match what the program intended, if anything, M833 would be the minimum, not the cap.
Given Gaijin’s historic laziness, I expect a BR decrease rather than a round update. I still hope that the AGS would get M900 at the very least.
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This is going to be long so apologies
The pressure thing is very much a rabbit hole and I legitimately cannot find a clear answer on. We have documents of course talking about breeches with a S/N lower than 4804 not being able to use M900 due to the pressure being too high. But then we see the designation M900A1 pop up during desert storm.
The Chieftain did some research and found M900 never went to the Gulf War and instead found only M900A1 oh shipping manifests and official ammunition counts. He states M900A1 uses M43 propellant which only reaches 2/3 the pressure levels of the original propellant and burns slower meaning a less violent peak pressure during firing. However I cannot find any references to the original propellant, all documents for M900 state “M43 propellant”. The DOD also seems to use M900 and M900A1 interchangeably in many of their official documents which does not help at all. (Weapon systems handbook from 2020-2021 still referring to it as M900)
The next piece of the puzzle comes from Hunnicutt’s book on the M60. It has a picture of Marines on a practice gunnery range in Saudi Arabia with M900A1 during Desert Shield/Storm. The only 105mms armed tanks the USMC used in that conflict were M60A1 Rise Ps (+10 M60A3s lent by the Army) they had no 105mm M1s in their inventory. Which would mean M900A1 was able to fire even from an M60A1s older M68E1 breech.
My personal conclusion is that The Chieftain is right. M900 never entered production and the lower pressure M900A1 is what actually entered service and has continuously been mislabeled by government. But for all I know the truth could be somewhere in between.
M900 diagram with breech reference
Chieftain’s research (unsure of original user will give credit to them)
Photo of Marine with M900A1 from Hunnicutt’s
Spoiler
Army Weapon Systems handbook 2020-2021
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Solid write up!
The AGS was designed around the new KE family and successor rounds, not capped at older ammo. If what actually entered service was effectively a lower-pressure “M900A1” that keeps showing up as simply “M900” in documents, then the pressure argument doesn’t really exclude AGS compatibility. It just means the round evolved. In that case, M833 is the minimum.
I suppose the AGS could be buffed a little bit and fitted with the M900 round if it’s going to sit at 12.0 BR.
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Thanks my man!
My personal beliefs on the matter are for the XM8 to receive M900 since it was the historical winner of the competition.
But in the context of war thunder I understand the AGS performs better and has characteristics leading to a higher BR placement. I do think M833 is lacking in post pen in 12.3-12.7 games (in my experience at least) So I think M900 is a good buff for it, and if they really feel the need I think bumping it to 12.3 with M900 is an acceptable middle ground as well.
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