M735 is no longer an acceptable round at 9.0 and 9.3

Game Discussion General Discussion
,
1

You can’t just completely nerf a shell and thus the vehicles using it and then not compensate the vehicles who again, got nerfed through it.

If you casually increase the BRs of vehicles who are given new shells, like the AGS, then removing a shell or it’s performance should be accompanied with a reduction in BR.
image

image

In other words a decrease of almost 20%

Especially in the 9.0 and 9.3 region it’s a joke, the premiums get milked absolutely bone dry at 10.0 and 10.3 which has created one the most uptiered BRs in the game with close to 80% of games being 10.3 or 10.0, it’s entirely pointless to play.

Vehicles relying on a nerfed M735 are not competitive at this point and uptiering is not just a thing that happens and you deal with it, but it almost exclusively happens.
It’s an 8.7 shell at the end of the day.

image

At this point the uptiering needs to be taken into consideration, the premium spam is bad enough for the gameplay as it is by turning the entire game into one and done premium spam, but ruining the entire BR range and it has a cascading effect downwards should not be ignored.

Supposedly it wasn’t even supposed to be nerfed, but it’s NATO so it’s whatever right, now we need to find borderline classified information again to get it reverted again 5 years from now and a sloppy napkin saying otherwise will bring it back down again within 5 minutes.

image
image1050×269 52.2 KB

36 Likes
2

As an avid, M735 user, it needs a buff (and has for way longer than it has had nerfed pen), or the 9.0/9.3 tanks that do get it, should get different shells or a low BR to compensate. Its biggest weakness is its terrible post-pen damage, and it is not good against leopard 2A4s, which are common enemies.

The Type-16 FPS and Both XM-1s should get better shells because I can’t see them going lower than they currently are due to their other strengths.

17 Likes
3

How do you know AGS was raised from 10.3 to 11.0 just because it got M833 ?
It might be performing exceptionally well at 10.3 and was bound to get BR increase anyways, so they chucked in M833 for good measure ?

XM-803 has worse shell and is still perfectly capable of dealing with stuff at it’s BR.

4

2A4, Abrams, T-80s, Turms, Challengers…

Type 16s were 8.7 before, no idea why they have to be 9.3 at this point… Type 16 P and Type 16 FPS both rely on the M735 at 9.3 now where a lot of things at the same BR have over 400mm of pen.

At least the Type 74 G gets Type 93 but it’s not a great platform and it puts it out of sync with the entire lineup which was meh to begin with.

PTL at 9.0 gets 380mm, WMA gets 337mm + tandem ATGM, Rooikat also gets DM23 at 9.0 which is already more pen, and the 105 gets the DM33 which puts it at 9.3.

Even giving them all Type 93 it doesn’t solve the perma uptier issues and splits about the only lineup you get as Japan, which includes stupidly overtiered vehicles already.

7 Likes
5

Because the FPS was too low at 8.7.

Pen isn’t everything. I’ve always thought the FPS was very comparable to the XM-1 (GM). The FPS should be the same BR as it, and the XM-1 shouldn’t go to 9.0. They would be almost OP at 8.7 because of their extreme speed, gen 3 thermals, and good gunhandling for a wheeled vehicle. However, they should get a better round rather than having a lower BR.

1 Like
6

XM also gets 380mm HEAT, and an ATGM, some kind of armor, a low profile on an insanely agile platform if it’s anything like the Kpz, plus a lower BR where it doesn’t face the premium spam of KVTs and 2A4s, as well as the Vilkas currently.

9.0 is a lot more balanced than 9.3 when it comes to that.

image

1 Like
7

The fact that the original nerf was based on flawed assumptions should be reason enough to revert it. It is a common enough round that nerf-batting it has a great impact on multiple vehicles - many of which don’t need nerfing.

In other news, I’ve looked at the BM42 shell (another common shell of similar BR used by lots of vehicles)and decided it should be nerfed. No you don’t need to see any sources. I know waaaay more about this sort of thing than actual ammunition experts and have looked a few blurry photos on Google Images. Did you know the BM42 looks like a dart you’d throw at a dartboard in a village pub?

Thus, I ASSUME it must have the same flight characteristics. I’ve used the same punishing criteria as Gaijin have for nerfing NATO BOL countermeasures, M735, crippling Western MANPADS, etc.

I’ve made it up.

15 Likes
8

Isn’t the FPS pretty much the same as the Type 16 P anyways? I think they’re fine at 9.0 as they’re variations to the WMA, PTL, Rooikat, XM., Centauro. maybe the BMD to some extend… almost all nations have similar vehicles which pretty much equalize the playing field in terms of mobility.

With a nerfed M735 they’d be fine at 9.0.

1 Like
9

HEAT and ATGMs are borderline useless on XM-803 and armor is paper. Also, all three crew (and ammo) are situated in the turret so they’re exposed at all times. XM-803 is also much slower than KPz-70 with a 1.5s longer reload.
That tank is getting carried hard by it’s good speed and gun handling.

4 Likes
10

Point of reference being a light tank and armor relevance is mostly about protecting against MGs and autocannons at this point, the armor is significant.

I don’t have the XM, but I know the Kpz is insane with it’s mobility and handling, and would much rather play a Kpz at 9.3 than a Type 16, ultimately you just get to do so much more when running into an autocannon or SPAA doesn’t annihilate you and tracked vehicles work better.

The shell difference is only 7mm of pen so I don’t think that’s a real downside.

11

FPS have normal armor package of Type 16, thus can survive .50 cal and some autocanons, unlike 16P. So yeah, it is a better vehicle, than P on the same BR.

1 Like
12

Oh really… well that’s something, thought they were added at different BRs as well, but I guess this is what decompression looks like.

13

Both XM-803 and FPS have really solid protection against auto cannons in that tier. Their armor is still literal cheese to most other threats though.

XM is basically a KPz but with 1.5s slower reload, worse mobility, slightly better gun handling and no 20mm autocannon. In my opinion those two shouldn’t be only one BR step apart, but that’s compression issue.

As I can see, one of your biggest complaints here is it’s performance in full uptiers, which is also a compression issue that can’t be solved without decompression, obviously.
If you lower Type 16s to 9.0, then 8.0s will start to moan how they have to face wheeled boi with 3rd gen thermals, LRF and dart so it will create a domino effect.

I tried to say that both of those vehicles have similarly bad shells and how XM can still deal with more armored threats by using his other strengths.

5 Likes
14

Well, they both are still at the same BR, still is kinda hillarious.

15

Both XM-803 and FPS have really solid protection against auto cannons in that tier. Their armor is still literal cheese to most other threats though.

The FPS is apparently the pay to win version of the Type 16 P which would be a better comparison as TT vehicles, which really doesn’t have noteworthy armor beyond .50 protection.

As I can see, one of your biggest complaints here is it’s performance in full uptiers, which is also a compression issue that can’t be solved without decompression, obviously.

It’s not just performance in uptiers, it’s the fact that it’s 80% uptiers due to the premiums being milked like a cow in the desert.
A vehicle having a more difficult time in an uptier is one thing, but if the uptier becomes the norm it needs to be considered for vehicle performance.

If you lower Type 16s to 9.0, then 8.0s will start to moan how they have to face wheeled boi with 3rd gen thermals, LRF and dart so it will create a domino effect.

At 9.0 we already have the XM 803 as mentioned, which has LRF and darts.
TAM, LRF and DM33 with 408mm of pen.
Class 3P, wheelie boi LRF with DM33
BMD-4, not necessarily a wheelie boi but still really mobile, auto cannon, tandem ATGM
Rooikat, LRF, thermals, DM23
PTL02, LRF, 380mm of pen, thermals
WMA, LRF, thermals, 337mm of pen + tandem ATGM
VBC wheelie boi with thermals and autocannon.

Type 16 would LRF, thermals and 290mm of pen, which would make it the lowest pen at 9.0 out of this list, bar autocannons, it wouldn’t be the fastest, reload probably below average but it would get better thermals to compensate.

I really don’t see the Type 16 bringing anything to 9.0 that isn’t already there, the Rooikat has a way faster reload, WMA has tandem ATGMs, PTL and WMA get 2nd gen thermals as well which in my opinion is barely any worse than 3, but a bigger difference from gen 1.

16

It isn’t the best at any one thing, but it sure as hell isn’t a 9.0 worthy tank.

Once again, pen is not everything. Its very fast, has gen 3 thermals, some funny survivability due to its larger size, smoke grenades (which the XM-1 lacks) and it has good gun handling for a wheeled vehicle.

The P can go down to 9.0, but the FPS shouldn’t become another undertiered premium tank because it should never face 8.0 tanks.

That’s huge tho. .50s are a light tank’s biggest enemy, and now you can’t easily be killed by them.

2 Likes
17

It isn’t the best at any one thing, but it sure as hell isn’t a 9.0 worthy tank.

Than none of the other vehicles at 9.0 are worthy then, the only highlight is thermals, which doesn’t exactly kill people.
All the other vehicles are better in some categories than the Type 16, so having better thermals seems a fair trade.

18

What about survivability?

I do not want to see another wheeled tank with janky survivability at 9.0, current compression is too bad for that to happen.

M735 sucks, but you’re acting like it’s unusable. It is only an issue in uptiers and if you don’t aim properly.

19

There is none. Type 16P is vulnerable to any canon or .50 cal even from the front. 3 of 4 members are in the turret and frequently being killed with single shot.

2 Likes
20

It’s not any better than what else is out there, the only really subpar ones are the WMA and PTL due to thin armor and a bad layout.
Type 16 has 3 crew in a line for easy one shots from the front and sides.

Compression being an issue applies to everything, it shouldn’t push or prevent BR changes.

It is only an issue in uptiers and if you don’t aim properly.

So pretty much always an issue then, as it gets uptiered 80% of the time to 10.0 and above.

4 Likes