Is it that much worse vs angles?
I use the B anyways for the filler, but people will see the bigger numbers on the D and cry bias.
Disagree. M26 is about as powerless as it gets against 7.7 vehicles and already doesn’t have great odds against most 6.7 heavies. Conversely, there’s not many lineups running at 5.3 anymore and half the tanks that exist in that BR that might have to go against the M26 can still do reasonably well against it.
Well the US 90 mm M3 (and other cannons like the Panther 75 mm, long 88 mm and 128 mm) have received quite big buffs to their accuracy in update 2.31.1.37, so dispersion shouldn’t be nearly as much of an issue.
Still the actual weakspot “area” on the Panther’s mantlet is quite small.
I only mentioned them since some people are complaining how “small” the weakspots of T-72s are, while also shooting with really precise guns and LRFs.
Absolutely agree. APCR is generally pretty poor and rarely worth bringing. Except M304, which is absolutely cracked and has more penetration than KwK43 APCR. I still don’t use it as the main round because M82 deals with most opponents pretty easily, but I pack about equal amounts of the two shells.
So your pics are misleading as you are shooting “down” because consider camera angle is on. Here is a more accurate depiction:
M26 can only be penetrated in some small weak spots that are volumetric’d often. The lower plate is technically possible (low probability) but as shown, a slight angle downwards makes the shot impossible. So the Pershing would need high ground and an exposed LFP to be killed there. On flat ground, a Panther cannot reliably kill a Pershing at the pretty standard range of 500m.
The Panther has a similar protection mapping vs the Pershing’s M82. However, the turret is able to be penetrated. Of course, Panther mantlets are notoriously volumetric’y and so the turret corners are a much more reliable shot.
Now look at M304 APCR. It easily penetrates the UFP of the Panther at 500m (the protection map was kinda goofin out, but you can see the shot) and even up until 1100m it has a possibility of penetration.
Finally, there’s the side armour. As shown, a Pershing can angle its hull quite far before a Panther can pen the side armour. In comparison, even a very slight angle from the Panther allows its side to be shot through. The “low possibility” here is simply referring to the chance of a ricochet. Out of 10 “test shots” on the Panther at that angle with M82, only 1 ricocheted. Not a great sample size, but you get it.
After playing with both the US and French Pershings I can definitely agree it doesn’t belong in 6.7. 6.3 would be the best.
M304 will not go through at 500 meters. And the protection map is telling you that it doesn’t precisely because the angle you’re hitting at is different from what protection map is using, due to the fact you have “Consider camera vertical angle” turned off.
As you pointed out, his screenshots show him shooting from above. However your screenshots of M304 against the Panther are worse than his in that regard. His shot is hitting the plate at 53º, yours is at 52º.
Edit for clarification: “Consider camera vertical angle” only impacts the protection map. Your own camera and the penetration pointer will be completely unnaffected by it.
In level ground, the Panther UFP will be hit at basically 55º. With that angle, it will be 272 mm effective against M304 APCR, and will only go through up to about 260 meters (estimated using a graph).
Panther VS M304
200 meters, penetration is over protection value so likely to penetrate.
300 meters, penetration is under protection value so unlikely to penetrate.
Test drive Panther vs M304 at 240 meters (yes, it is in arcade, purely to get a distance value).
I shot this Panther 5 times in this test, and I penetrated about 50% of the time. It is slightly angled, so the distance I calculated does fall a bit short. It does, however, show that 500 meters is a gross overestimation if it can barely reliably penetrate the Panther at just 240 meters.
The same issue happens with your screenshot of the M26’s LFP against the Panther gun. Other than at extremely close range, the Panther will go through, assuming level ground (which is what is shown with your protection map). The M26 does not need to have the high ground for this to happen.
Edit: Also I have to ask… what is wrong with the gamma in your screenshots?
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No idea lol
90mm APCR is pretty viable. I tested it when playing the T25 at 6.3 to prove the point that 6.3 is perfectly fine and balanced BR for it.
I used 90mm APCR exclusively in a couple of games and had basically the same result as when using M82.
It has more penetration, so you don’t need to switch rounds when aiming for a Tiger IIs turret or a Ferdinand and in general will go through a Tiger 1 like butter.
It used to have ~200m/s more velocity so hitting some light tanks at range that was easier.
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It’s not absurd because the Panthers are worse than any other medium tanks, except gun and front armor. That’s their one selling point.
That’s like saying the M4A2 shouldn’t be 4.0 because it can’t pen a T-126s front armor.
A Panthers turret gets also penetrated by every medium 1.0 BR below them, a M26s not so much.
Comparing two vehicles against each others doesn’t tell anything about their overall efficency.
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Boiling the various Panther models down to just their UFP and gun would be selling them short.
The Panthers have good mobility for their weight class, and the suspension provides a surprisingly stable firing platform.
Being German tanks, Panthers have multiple smoke grenade dischargers. The A model and most of the 6.0 Panthers have good turret traverse.
The turret isn’t always as vulnerable as you make it out to be, it’s highly situational. Your best bet is the flat turret face behind the mantlet, which is a really narrow area. Trying to hit this spot on an active opponent who is either on the move or rotating their turret is challenging to say the least.
Shots against the mantlet can work depending on your gun, but hitting just a little too low or too high will result in a non-penetration.
The greatest drawback I can think of is the poor reverse, which is a blemish on an otherwise outstanding vehicle.
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Panthers are 6.0. The pershing is 6.7. We are comparing APHE to APCR and somehow justifying 2 BR steps up, as if postpen and shell shatter doesn’t exist. The pershing isn’t a great tank at 6.3. At 6.7 its a joke.
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You have a very potent 90mm cannon designed to kill a Tiger II. Not frontally but on the cheeks which in-game is still there weak spot.
IRL tankers only aimed center mass. It was NOT made to kill the Tiger II. It was made to counter the Panther. Hence we are comparing it to the Panther.
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Even in its unnerfed state, only having M735 makes the XM1 worse off than most 9.3s
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A blemish that german tankers will always remind you of and act like its the end of the world, oh no the wunder tank isnt perfect
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Pershing can be frontally killed by Ostwind. And it’s not overpressure, it’s penetration with APHE.
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ah yes, the lower plate thats always visible and capable of being shot. or the classic shooting the breech and 50 pin allows it to hit slightly to the left or right and with volumetric it just doesnt do anything and then you get instantly deleted because they have a round that can go through your composite armor like a hot knife through butter.
but youre not having to make shots from over 500m away against a panther usually. and the point and click capability russian tanks have compared to us tanks is insane at top tier