Not mentioning the fact that SPAA’s can literally overpressure T-72B or tanks alike by just shooting its frontal turret armour.
Yet at same time Gaijin was the one to nerf KV-2 HE pen from 70 to 40.
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I don’t know what you’re saying here.
You’re looking at a screenshot which shows penetration is not possible, and then you conclude I’m wrong and that penetration is possible?
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“Bro, why do you want Leclerc to have its UFP fixed? It’s not like it will become immune to DM53 xD”
“Yo, why do you want Leclerc not to have worse mobility than Leopard 2 while being 10 tons lighter? Do you have any official primary source stating that it should actually be faster and by how much specifically, or you are just a French main who wants to make your favourite toy OP?”
“Heh, there’s a YouTuber who has a 24:1 K/D with Leclerc; if you perform poorly with it it’s just a skill issue, noob, the tank is perfectly fine.”
“Shut up about Leclerc, it’s better than the Ariete and Merkava, that means it needs no changes or fixes, it’s fine, just learn to play and adapt.”
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Imagine thinking that we are just going to find official primary sources giving specific armor values on a classified tank that remains to be the U.S’ armored corps’ main workhorse in 2024.
“Hey guys, you know the classified tank that protects our country? I think we should just release secret documents to the public giving specific details about its armor so that people in a videogame can prove that the tank we use in 2024 has, in fact, better armor than the one we used in 1979.”
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So if the information surrounding this entire matter is classified then you cannot prove or disprove any claims that are being made.
So why should gaijin make changes based upon speculation?
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It’s not speculation; it’s well-educated guesstimates. The same thing they do for many other vehicles.
When there are 3 primary sources suggesting something and 10 secondary sources confirming it, guesstimates should be made.
These vehicles are CLASSIFIED, we will not be getting any primary source with specifics anytime soon and it is unrealistic to expect it.
And doing a well edicated estimation is a far better solution than guessing that a tank used in 2024 has barely any upgrades compared to a 1990 one or none in terms of hull compared to a 1979 one just because there aren’t primary sources specifically verifying it (although heavily suggesting it).
We have even had Abrams veterans who have worked for years on the Abrams procurement and upgrade programs stating that SEPv2 should have improved hull armor, but apparently not even their words are valid.
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It is speculation, you just said that information surrounding it is classified and nobody is able to prove or disprove beyond shadow of reasonable doubt.
Unless you happen to have some evidence to substantiate your statements in which case you should submit it as a bug report to gaijin so that if it passes the reasonable standard it can be implemented.
Good luck.
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They already do to some extent though the use of the unified penetration calculator(s), instead of from known data for shells that have public firing data.
And so in effect they already do, we know the array layout for the T Series (amount a significant number of errors and inaccuracies across many vehicles in game) and that it is modeled improperly (double dipping on LOS values), would it be that hard to provide some level of improvement since we know that any NERA array are compatible with any particular M1A1 and later hulls (There are no loner limits on the use of DU hulls) to provide some improvement to Later M1s to keep up with expected threats at some specific distance.
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They already do to some extent though the use of the unified penetration calculator(s), instead of from known data for shells that have public firing data.
Wasn’t the whole reason for doing this because the testing performed for various countries was performed in different testing conditions so it would be more fair if a blanket algorithm was used?
That’s not really the same was wanting extra armour added to a tank without any credible documentation or evidence to back it up.
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Issue is, their only “reasonable standard” is to have a document by General Dynamics signed by the Founding Fathers stating specific KE values. On a classified MBT in 2024.
There’s a point where such unrealistic standards should be lowered to actually viable ones.
Making a well educated estimation would provide significantly more realistic and balanced results than just keeping the armor used in 2024 the same as the one used in 1979 just because “there is no evidence (…)”.
Imagine there had been no sources about T-90M’s armor. What would you have found more reasonable; for Gaijin to make up a well educated estimation based on the available data even if it may not be 1:1 to real life… or for them to give T-90M the exact same armor as T-72A’s “because there are no sources giving specific information about T-90M’s armor”, “therefore let’s better not make any changes until someone proves otherwise”?
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I’d rather keep speculation out of the game as much as possible and gaijin seems to agree.
If some evidence comes to light down the line to substantiate the claims being made then I’m sure the problem will be addressed as long as it does not conflict with any relevant laws.
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I’m very interested if Gaijin still has that “reasonable standard” for when they add the BVM 2023 that was leaked a while ago by olivia, with its supposedly better reverse speed that is completely unproven.
I think that vehicle will be a decent test for what their standard is. If they give it the supposed improved reverse speed we know they have thrown all standards out of the window.
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We will see I suppose, I don’t know enough about the situation nor have I looked into it.
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Then let’s give Challenger 2 the same armor as Challenger 1.
Because the current values are estimates crafted from clues (such as the army’s requirements for a future MBT during CR2’s development), not solid given values.
Then let’s give Type 10 the same armor as Type 90.
Because, again, the current values are estimates crafted from a requirement estimate, not solid given values.
And a long etc, etc, etc.
Because apparently making well educated logical estimations is wrong and it is better and more logical not to represent armor improvements made over the course of 30 years just because no sources give specific values and “it would be speculation”.
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There is one video online of the BVM 2023 where one of the designers says that it can go 21 km/h in reverse, but during the video footage of the BVM reversing they never show the actual speed at which it’s driving.
Now a lot of people use this video as proof.
Then let’s give Challenger 2 the same armor as Challenger 1.
Great, as long as we give the uparmoured M1s the same armour values as the declassified M1s because they’re all based on clues and guesswork.
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So you would genuinely have all the Abrams, including the ones with 3rd Generation DU armor which are 7 tons heavier because of it, have the same armor as M1 because “the rest are guesswork”?
I… just to clarify- are you serious? Because if that’s the case, I think everything is clear enough now.
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You were the one that brought it up, are you serious? Or were you just making a silly hyperbolic statement and you’ve just now realised the absurdity of it?
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It’s not hyperbolic.
According to you, armor improvements should only ever be modelled after specifically given values and not estimations based on available data, which you call “speculations”.
So yeah; the same way you think it’s fine for M1A2 SEPv2 (2009-2024) to have the same hull armor as M1 (1979) just “because there is no solid evidence”, applying the same standard, you should want Challenger 2 to have the same armor as Challenger 1 and Type 10 to have the same armor as Type 90, since their armor was carefully crafted through estimations, given the lack of solid sources.
I think maybe it’s you the one who realised how absurd it is to demand for such detailed and high standards when it comes to SECRET VEHICLES.
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It is hyperbolic. And you are also misrepresenting what I said that you even quoted.
You quoted.
I’d rather keep speculation out of the game as much as possible and gaijin seems to agree.
And now you’re deliberately strawmanning that all speculation should be removed from the game. You know that you’re being intentionally hyperbolic and silly, hence why I used your own absurdist argument against you and your reaction that followed.
The matter of fact is gaijin is not going to start adding random armour to tanks when there is no credible evidence to substantiate it.
Feel free to falsely flag again, it will just get reviewed.
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