M18 needs to go dowen to min 5.3

[hjnbnb]

@Nowel_

5.3 is far too low.

Imo its not. People just need to learn where they hide, they’re annoying yeah but they’re not difficult to deal with. 5.3 may be a bit on the low side though.

@Nowel_

I could see go down to 5.7, but It does fine where it is, 5.3 is simply too low the 90mm does makes a diference and the turret is much better than the M4a3.

The way I see this one is the M36 is just a better vehicle. It’s 5.3 with a lower silhouette, faster reload iirc, better gun handling, your armour difference is so negligible. Not getting strafed helps a bit but you’re also faster in the Jackson.

@Nowel_

The m6a1 is already 5.

My bad

@Nowel_

and there is no reason for the T1E1 to be the same br.

I thought it was effectively the same thing with an electric transmission? Please correct me if I’m wrong

@Nowel_

Another one that makes no sense, they shouldnt be the same br.

I mean I guess for me I like the M36 because its lighter, it gets around better, yeah its easier to strafe but so what, I would also never use the CHEAT-FS on the B2 or the extra machine gun

@Nowel_

Also no reason for go down, the 2s3 is it’s equivalent no reason for it to be over a br under it, not to mention that HE-VT at 5.0 is ridiculous.

Yeah they need to remove HE-VT, SPAA is OP enough as it is, but the issue with HE slingers is that they can never be balanced. Its both over and undertiered at 6.3, same with the M44 at 4.0 and such.

@Nowel_

They are fine at 6.7

M56 is in the same boat as the M18, its just people dont see them. If people open their eyes for half a second its worse in every way than the M36. Only benefit is a bit better mobility iirc.

Ontos is just impossible to use in my experience.

@Beeschurger

Lol, lmao even

All SPAA are undertiered by 0.7 - 1.3 BR generally. Especially until about 8.7

[Beeschurger]

@hjnbnb

All SPAA are undertiered by 0.7 - 1.3 BR generally.

CAS players the moment they cant get 5 kills by pressing a spacebar once:

[Nowel]

@hjnbnb

People just need to learn where they hide

This is just a bogus argument, the mobility of the m18 is simply superior to most things at this br, if they “learn” how to hide the m18 can learn how to conter them.

@hjnbnb

It’s 5.3 with a lower silhouette, faster reload iirc, better gun handling, your armour difference is so negligible

The m26 turret is far better protected, the reload is the same, the gun handling is identical, and it is not open top, so you cannot get obliterated by a 50mm HE, the only advantage of the jackson is a better hp/t while having worse top speed. The silhouette difference is negligible they are around the same size.

It is a m4a3 sidegrade where you trade the stabiliser for the 90mm and the better turret.

@hjnbnb

I thought it was effectively the same thing with an electric transmission? Please correct me if I’m wrong

The electric transmission gives you the same top speed backwards as forward, if you also add that the m6a1 reverse is just 5km/h, this makes it worth the difference, and you can use the is 2 tactic of driving backwards.

@hjnbnb

I would also never use the CHEAT-FS

Well if you dont use it that’s on you, the round is still a factor, which does matter when you lol pen anything that it faces with it.

@hjnbnb

M56 is in the same boat as the M18, its just people dont see them. If people open their eyes for half a second its worse in every way than the M36.

This is another non argument, because the same aregument could be thrown back to the m56 players, the fact is that they are exellent ambush vehicles that again negats the armour at this br, they srecompletely fine at 6.7.

[hjnbnb]

@Beeschurger

CAS players the moment they cant get 5 kills by pressing a spacebar once:

Ground players not explaining their argument and just saying skill issue:

@Nowel_

The m26 turret is far better protected

Literally nobody aims for that, if they are they might be dumb

@Nowel_

the reload is the same

My apologies

@Nowel_

the gun handling is identical,

No. Sherman is more top heavy and wobbles significantly more

@Nowel_

The electric transmission gives you the same top speed backwards as forwar

Yes I know

@Nowel_

this makes it worth the difference, and you can use the is 2 tactic of driving backwards.

Scummy tactic but yes you could. Doesnt change the fact it sucks

@Nowel_

Well if you dont use it that’s on you, the round is still a factor, which does matter when you lol pen anything that it faces with it.

You lol pen everything and do no damage lmao

[SinisterIsRandom]

Cause most main players are dumb. Put anyone who isn’t playing a main nation… this includes the swapping side Italia and performance changes.

[Nowel]

@hjnbnb

Literally nobody aims for that, if they are they might be dumb

Not if youre hull down, not sure why would you ever want to play either of those exposing the hull, both hulls are weak at it br.

@hjnbnb

Scummy tactic but yes you could. Doesnt change the fact it sucks

Scummy, but it works, and the tank is fine at 5.3, neither m6a1 or T1E1 sucks, far from it.

@hjnbnb

You lol pen everything and do no damage lmao

That’s up to your aim, you can still one shot enemies from the front with it, it is still much better than the apcr or straight up not being able to pen which does happen with the 90mm on an uptier or at longer ranges.

@hjnbnb

No. Sherman is more top heavy and wobbles significantly more

Thats not what gun handling means, that is turret traverse and elevation, and the m4/26 is quite stable due to the suspension of the m4a3, i havent seen any mayor difference on that between the m4/26 or the jackson.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@KillaKiwi

Wow, you can kill a Tiger II in a full uptier in 3 shots

2 max unless you’re bad, first shot is going to disable him from firing back usually so you’re just making up things here

@KillaKiwi

How about just deleting them in one shot with M82?

yeah because M82 is effective against Tiger 2s, surely

[hjnbnb]

@Nowel_

Not if youre hull down, not sure why would you ever want to play either of those exposing the hull, both hulls are weak at it br.

Most maps dont allow for hull down efficiently, if they do then fine, but its still easy to track and barrel. Plus the best way to use the M36 is like a Tiger, push up and use your good mobility to smack people

@Nowel_

Scummy, but it works, and the tank is fine at 5.3, neither m6a1 or T1E1 sucks, far from it.

Tbf I havent played either in ages so I cant really comment. I just played it years ago and despised it

@Nowel_

Thats not what gun handling means, that is turret traverse and elevation, and the m4/26 is quite stable due to the suspension of the m4a3, i havent seen any mayor difference on that between the m4/26 or the jackson.

Gun handling is everything to do with how the gun handles?

[KillaKiwi]

@Normandy_Corsair

2 max unless you’re bad, first shot is going to disable him from firing back usually so you’re just making up things here

I literally hit a Tiger II from 2km five times with a M48s HEAT-FS without even penetrating.

The only time you’re gonna need two shots is when you’re at close range and can line up the crew.

Both Tigers can negate HEAT incredibly well, by just being angled, in which case you’re either killing the gunner or the driver.

And when you need to kill the gunner to stop him from just killing you, you might as well just load APCR and hit the ammo in the back of the turret.

@Normandy_Corsair

yeah because M82 is effective against Tiger 2s, surely

Other than the front, they are an easy kill.
Can’t even count how many times I’ve killed German 6.7 heavies with an easy side shot.

It’s surprisingly easy to avoid close range engagements with Tiger IIs and if you get caught, you can still disable their barrel or aim for cupola or MG port.

Much more effective than having HEAT loaded and then needing to hit a vehicle two or three times.
You can easily hit vehicles with HEAT without even disabling them, which is a huge downside for you and your team.

HEAT, like APCR is simply a last resort kind of shell.
You only use it when you have to.
Because why should you trade the ability to easily destroy vehicles in one shot from the front or side for a shell that requires either good aim or simply luck.
Doesn’t matter how good your aim is, when someone is on the move you’re not going to hit where you want, and that’s exactly why APHE is so powerful.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@KillaKiwi

I literally hit a Tiger II from 2km five times with a M48s HEAT-FS without even penetrating.

The only time you’re gonna need two shots is when you’re at close range and can line up the crew.

My experience says you’re wrong.

@KillaKiwi

Both Tigers can negate HEAT incredibly well

No.

@KillaKiwi

by just being angled

Double no.

@KillaKiwi

Other than the front, they are an easy kill.

Oh so the same angle a Jumbo can kill a Tiger 2. Maps in WT aren’t made to where you are constantly getting side shots.

@KillaKiwi

It’s surprisingly easy to avoid close range engagements with Tiger IIs and if you get caught, you can still disable their barrel

I’m sure they just let you do this or that barrel shots never fail

@KillaKiwi

or aim for cupola

I’m sure this is a reliable shot

@KillaKiwi

MG port.

I’m sure this is a reliable shot

@KillaKiwi

Much more effective than having HEAT loaded and then needing to hit a vehicle two or three times.

Sure…

[KillaKiwi]

@Normandy_Corsair

My experience says you’re wrong.

I highly doubt you experienced hitting moving Tiger IIs with 90mm HEAT-FS from 2km or more.

@Normandy_Corsair

No.

I see you just have up giving any good arguments.

If you don’t kill the gunner you’re dead, if you don’t kill the driver they are going away. So nothing with two hit kills because you’re not getting the kill.

@Normandy_Corsair

Maps in WT aren’t made to where you are constantly getting side shots.

Then maybe we’re playing different games because I guarantee that 70% or more of all kills are from side shots.

Vehicles like the Jagdpanzer IV must be unkillable when somehow they never get shot in the side.

@Normandy_Corsair

Sure…

Great argument. So you’re telling me that HEAT-FS is in any way comparable to the 360° nuke that is APHE?

Do you aim for the cupola with HEAT-FS and end up killing a vehicle in one shot?

Does HEAT-FS kill the entire crew or kill the transmission when you hit a tank in the turret?

Does HEAT-FS blow up ammo when the round didn’t hit anywhere in the vicinity of it?

[Normandy_Corsair]

@KillaKiwi

I see you just have up giving any good arguments.

I only give high effort to high effort posts, you’ll note I didn’t reply to the rest of your post here.

[KillaKiwi]

Very funny 😂

So you’re basically saying that what I’m saying is wrong.

Well, then. Explain this:

Spoiler

So how come the better M36B with all penning HEAT-FS does somehow perform worse than the regular M36, despite the M36 even having a lower win rate?

Almost like HEAT-FS doesn’t magically make the vehicle better in an environment where even 6.7 tanks are using the same cannon without HEAT.

[Normandy_Corsair]

@KillaKiwi

So how come the better M36B with all penning HEAT-FS does somehow perform worse than the regular M36, despite the M36 even having a lower win rate?

Statistics have massive nuance and context that you cannot gather from simply glancing at numbers

[KillaKiwi]

Didn’t expect any other answer, other than avoiding it.

So you’re basically have no other argument other than „I‘m right and you are not“ and „From my experience you’re wrong“.

So how about this:

The M36B without HEAT-FS is objectively worse than the M36 because it’s significantly less mobile, going from 17.8hp/t to just 13.7hp/t.

That means that only HEAT-FS can remedy the worse performance.

But what is a M36s playstyle?

Well, in essence the M36 plays exactly like an M18.
Both are classes as tank destroyer but unlike your German or Soviet TD they have turrets, have no effective armor against AP shells but are highly mobile.

Without armor they can not face vehicles head-on other than from ambush positions or they will easily be destroyed by any target.

So they must use their mobility to set up ambush or surprise vehicles, to destroy tanks with APHE that can penetrate 90% of the targets they face from the front.
Unlike a turretless Nashorn or a slow Waffenträger, which can penetrate 100% of the vehicles they can see, or a Jagdpanzer IV/70 or SU-85M, which can push up to targets as they aren’t easily destroyed by either SPAA or medium tanks from the front.

Now how does HEAT-FS play into this playstyle?
Well, it doesn’t.
You still want to avoid engagements with vehicles and obviously shoot them before they can fire back.
You also want to kill vehicles as quickly as possible because mobility and firepower are you’re main defense.
You can’t take a shot so you don’t want to get caught reloading.
But when you do everything right, you will kill almost any target in one shot and be able to kill another target by the time you have reloaded.

Now what about the tanks you can’t easily kill?
Jagdpanther, Ferdinand, Tiger II and Jagdtiger are the main enemies you can’t easily kill with APHE from the front.
Panthers are only vulnerable on the turret but that’s the case for almost any other vehicle.

You could load HEAT and be able to penetrate them from the front but nuh-uh, remember your playstyle?
Remember not wanting to engage vehicles from the front because that’s where their mean guns are that you don’t want pointed in your direction?

Sure there are instances where you need it, in order to get a kill but there are many more instances where you don’t need it and where HEAT is actually disadvantages compared to the much higher kill potential of APHE.

Even when your M36 can pen any target, it doesn’t change that everyone can also penetrate your armor.
So engaging targets frontally, where HEAT gives you the advantage in penetration but not damage, makes no sense. Since you’re not going to achieve much more than any medium or light tank that can easily evaporate a M36.

The use case for HEAT-FS is severely limited when being in a save position to shoot tanks in the side is much more profitable.

Even when the whole enemy team is in super heavy tanks, you’re still better off staying hidden and waiting for an opportunity to kill them on one shot than trying to fight out with tanks that can point and click you away.

It’s not that difficult to penetrate 80mm side armor with 90mm APHE. And the majority of targets only have 40-50mm.

[_Zekken]

@KillaKiwi

Wow, you can kill a Tiger II in a full uptier in 3 shots, when he only takes one to kill you.
Major advantage /s

How about just deleting them in one shot with M82?

M82 pretty much cant pen a Tiger 2 H frontally except a few tiny spots, MG port which is tiny on that thing, and maybe the commanders hatch which is also pretty hard to hit and tbh I’ve never really had any luck with it.

M348 HEATFS? You aim center mass anywhere you want and it pens. Yeah post pen is kind of meh, but realistically I’ve never had enough of a problem with it to switch to majority M82 on tanks that have it. Its not just the M36B2 that has it, the Japanese ST-A1/2 have the same options. (and the Type 61/ST-A3 have the option between that and M431 which has even less post pen).

Plus its not like I don’t have experience using M82, Super hellcat using the same gun is my 2nd most played tank in the game:

It works a lot better on the fast hellcat that gets a lot more flanking opportunities. I found I was going up against front on heavies a lot more in the less mobile M36s/Japanese mediums.

(Side note, American M36B2 is much slower than the base M36 because its got less engine power, but the Japanese M36B2 has the base American M36s engine so is just as mobile, the difference is quite noticable and idk why Gaijin has it like this)

@hjnbnb

All SPAA are undertiered by 0.7 - 1.3 BR generally. Especially until about 8.7

As a CAP/CAS main at WW2 BRs, no. No they aren’t. The only SPAAs below 7.0 that are under tiered are honestly the BTR-ZD and M53/59 which both could go up 0.3. The rest of them are fine.

As for Regular Hellcat, As I said like a year ago when this thread was originally posted, nah its fine at 6.0.

[ULQ_LOVER]

@_Zekken

As for Regular Hellcat, As I said like a year ago when this thread was originally posted, nah its fine at 6.0.

I have played it recently and it is fine

[Beeschurger]

@hjnbnb

Ground players not explaining their argument and just saying skill issue:

I already explained in lengthly reply my stance to you in different topic and didnt get as much as response.

I will make lengthy answer as long as you explain in detail why you think all SPAA are undertiered by 0.7-1.3 generally.

I wont be exerting unreasonable amount of effort to disprove your two sentences with academic paper worth of arguments.

Until then, skill issue + mald + cope + no maidens + L.

[hjnbnb]

@Beeschurger

SPAA are undertiered by 0.7-1.3 generally.

I’m being generous with that statement.

The issue with the game is that CAS is overpowered against tanks. We can all agree with that can’t we?

Good, we’re on the same page, now I can elaborate my point. Because CAS is overpowered against tanks we need to bring something in to counter this, which is going to be SPAA. Only issue is that aeroplanes have no counter to SPAA, if they go on an attack run then the CAS plane will be swatted out of the sky, leaving them to VERY long range rocket snipes which just aren’t viable ever. “Just dodge” is irrelevant. The SPAA can just blast at enemy aircraft without any possibility of retaliation, and will eventually hit him.

Okay, what’s the issue? CAS can do anything they want to tanks? Right? Wrong.

If SPAA play correctly they will advance with their tanks and cover the tanks from aircraft, due to the 2KM certain death bubble that most of them have, this will stop enemy aircraft from destroying your friendly tanks. Due to now being on the frontline they can now get killed by regular tanks though, right? Wrong again. The only SPAA that people play are the ones that have a chance against CAS AND ground targets, like the Duster, the 72-K, Ostwind, all the way up to the Pantsir, that can run around the map blasting both ground and air targets.

Originally we had a circle, CAS > Tanks > SPAA > CAS, but in reality due to people only using the same 4 or 5 SPAA it comes out to look more like this: CAS > Tanks < SPAA > CAS, with SPAA killing everything. Even if we take into account the vehicles that aren’t as great at killing tanks (Take something like a Wirbelwind), they tend to have a higher muzzle velocity than the ones that are good at killing tanks, take the M16 for example, it has four fast-firing high velocity machine guns that shred aircraft, but it’s not very good at taking out tanks, so it only focuses on aircraft. Now it looks more like this Tanks < CAS < SPAA.

There is NOTHING an aircraft can do against an SPAA, and a lot of the time there is not much a TANK can do against an SPAA. I’m not saying CAS isn’t OP, I’m saying that SPAA is more OP.

[Beeschurger]

@hjnbnb

due to the 2KM certain death bubble that most of them have

Before I reply, please elaborate which BR spread this statements relates to.