M103 rounds are so weak it should be 6.7
Simple test: the T29 at 7.0 can one pop the tiger 2 on test drive in turret without moving- yet the m103 cant.
Now its got weaker armour its a joke of a heavy tank
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In game uncapped ap it does have better slop modifiers than apc
Sure, but they still depend on the vertical penetration to come up with the proper sloped performance. The vertical penetration is the issue.
Conq too then?
I have always found the armor prior to this to work consistently well against conventional ammo such as what OP describes… in a downtier or 8.0 game it was absolutely still well armored
Only if the enemy didn’t know where to shoot. I always one tapped M103s through LFP with the Tiger II if it wasn’t hidden behind cover. I’m not sure how much easier it is now, but it was pretty easy before if you knew your shot placement, so how much has really changed? You were a hull down monster before and you’re a hull down monster now, being caught in the open is lethal to you just like it’s lethal for a Tiger II to be caught in the open with the turret face free for people to shoot.
uhm, a lot? The entire lfp is pennable by everything now and the UFP can be penned too in a lot of places it couldnt before… do you not get that having a weakspot isnt the same thing as the entire tank being paper? Before you reply, no I’m not referring to the kwk43
What can pen it that couldn’t before?
I hopped in game to look in protection analysis, and at 500m the upper front plate is immune to the long 88, just like before. The only two places you can shoot other than the LFP are the turret ring (which is the type of shot that usually doesn’t work out in actual battles unless conditions are absolutely perfect) and the cupola, same as before.
This is assuming level ground of course, things change quite a lot if you have a height advantage over the M103 (esp. with regards to the turret roof).
Just tried setting it at 0m and got the same result.
Looking closer there is actually a spot you can pen that you couldn’t before, at least I don’t think, it’s just under the gun and takes out the breech.
I mean, at least when it comes to using the long '88, you will have to shoot it in the same places you did before, you can’t exactly centre-mass-point-and-click it and expect it to do anything.
Ok, what guns are you referring to? OP specifically referenced the Soviet 122mm and the German long 88, so we’re talking in general about guns that have over 200mm of flat pen and have access to APHE, but if you have something else in mind I’m all ears.
As a final check I wanted to see if the 105mm gun of the Ho-Ri Prototype (whose APHE pens 205mm flat at 0 metres) could punch through it, and at least at 500m, it can’t pen anywhere but the turret ring, except for two tiny pixels on the LFP just under the towing hooks. At 0 metres it has more chances to penetrate the LFP. I don’t know if this has changed compared to before.
It was strong enough the Somua SM struggled to pen its LFP if not aimed well… lmfao. I mean pixel hunting. With a 4 sec Autoloader and high pen.
I find that hard to believe. The Somua pens about as much as the Jagdtiger, which could point and click the M103’s lower front plate before. Done it plenty of times.
Obviously solid AP probably needs a postpen buff on the particularly large-sized rounds (so 120mm or bigger, really).
But there are of course other options to make tanks like this more user-friendly. Most notably, Gaijin completely omitted the M78 Concrete-Piercing Fuse from all American HE rounds of 75-203mm sizes, even though America made all except one obsolete 175mm naval piece with the exact same screw threads to fit this fuse modularly as needed. Effectively this would give every American gun SAP rounds. The M78 fuse adds a mere 0.63kg weight to the HE shell so ballistics might slightly differ. But any American gun other than perhaps the 90mm smoothbore on the poor T95E1 is compatible with it, as shell rotation is what armed the thing.
Now given how badly Gaijin models SAP rounds, how useful these would be remains an open question.
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I can say this from experience at 200m I shot center of mass on the lower plate, to the left, and I went a bit farther right and lower into the corner of the hull almost, barely managing to cook his ammo took a good 3 shots ignoring the turret ricochet, and breech shot.
If he was able to fight back. I would’ve needed to back off and try a new approach lol. Despite how confusing that was for me considering I played since the beginning of ground almost, and the M103 used to have such a weak armor model. It was intriguing to say the least.
Although I had to try his lower plate 3 differing places? To me it was balanced. He has a far longer reload, far less mobile, gun handling is kinda mid, and such… It wouldn’t be the only time I’ve struggled with even the LFP on the M103 using the French 100mm mm on level ground. But boy did I start improving my positioning when I saw the M103 name tag pop up!
That 3 LFP shot match was on Northern Holland (I think that’s the map). Then I remember on a different map (it was Breslau I believe) I tried the turret ring 2 times and kept non penning because the shell was too big to fit (which made since) on my third shot I think I just flanked his hull and got his weak side armor
Overall, it used to feel like a real heavy tank. I’m okay with the LFP being nerfed a bit I guess but then, what does it have over the AMX-50, Somua SM, etc? Nothing truly. It’s now a glorified 6.7 tank imo. Not much redeeming other than its Rangefinder.
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Why is it almost all SAP type rounds for MBTs end up being around 84-88 mm pen? It’s oddly specific and uniform.
Likely some artificial “balans” mechanic by Snail that soft-caps them. Even though we have had APHE rounds with overpressure-level amounts of filler for how many years now? I legit don’t see the issue with just treating all round types under a single unified formula, to the point where I opted to start developing my own in my spare time. What I have thus come up with is a single formula that works for all manner of AP, APHE, APCR, APDS, SAP, and Naval CP.
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The more I play the less I understand WT
If it cant kill a panther with 2 shots what makes it 7.7? It just makes 2 big holes. The armour used to be good but not that good where it can take over 40 seconds to kill a single panther! (3rd shot kills)
Anyone explain? Are any of the US heavies around this BR actually better in any way than the T29 at 7.0?
I mean it would help if you didn’t shoot an already dead crew member. The M103 round can shoot clean through the Panther’s UFP, so do that and you will kill more crew.
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From what I can tell it doesnt matter where I shoot the turret - it just dies in 3 shots
A lot of the time in game turrets are all you can see
What makes it 7.7 though? I jump in T29 and it just 1 pops everything from where it spawns too- so harder as angled shots
That’s because if you shoot the right of the turret, then the left, only the turret crew is dead, leaving 2 crew members in the hull. One of them will move back to the turret, so you need to wait for that before shooting the turret.
Alternatively, you could just shoot center mass on the UFP and take out more of the crew, potentially 1 shotting it.
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With the recent armor nerf thanks to the remodel, it could go down to 7.3. But the reason is that it has good armor, decent mobility and gun handling for a heavy tank, and a good gun. Although the ammo is (pretty significantly) underperforming, it can still 1 shot most things provided you know where to shoot. It also has a heat round that can penetrate anything the AP shell can’t, though it does less post pen damage.
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Never realised that’s the only reason the panther is dying, kind of makes it even worse though
Mobility is pretty good and it looks awesome but thats where the good ends IMO. That reload is just too long for the damage it does+ if enemy is angled/ hull down it has to use those HEATS which also for some reason, seem like some of the worst iv used
Looks like its a fat RIP now anyway so Il never moan about it again.
What are you putting with T114? now the 1G heli is 7.7 I want to actually use it at its own BR without 1 life quit every game.
Buy T29 nxt sale and up-tier, cant be any worse can it? The t32s have 90mm which has to be getting old at 7.7? The T54E2 has solid shot so pay for pain? (sry for noob questions just ignore if u like lol)