@Mafiat_595 All your post has are false assumptions that sound like projection.
Since you obviously know I’ve played the F-104S when it was over-powered as well as recently.
The fact your post claims F-16A and F-18A are correctly BR’d is proof enough.
13.0’s compression is causing issues all the way down to 11.3, and claiming correctly BR’d F-4Es and F-104Ss are "over-BR’d while citing OP 12.3s is defending those 12.3s staying at that BR.
What are you even on about lmao. I never mentioned the F-16 and F-18 being correctly BR’d I said the F-104S faces them. I have 732 battles in the Italian F-104G, F-104S, and F-104S.ASA combined. I think I know what I’m talking about you donut.
@Mafiat_595
Your post comes in here claiming Italian tech tree players are wrong, and indirectly arguing that F-18A is correctly BR’d by claiming 11.3s are over-BR’d because of F-18A being 12.3, which is a defense of 13.0’s compression as well as OP 12.3s staying 12.3.
Instead of baiting and insulting others, maybe… just maybe accept that there’s a compression issue at 13.0 that’s causing some issues for 11.3s
Also… implying that the only 11.7 fighter in the game is anywhere close to OP while not even citing the slightly superior JA-37C at 11.3… bad taste.
Again you are making so many assumptions. What are you even accusing me of? Where are you pulling these random examples out of the air like my list was conclusive and any singular plane I didn’t mention is now exempt from this scrutiny?
Where did I say anything about Italian players, let alone them being “wrong”. I AM AN ITALIAN TECH TREE PLAYER. If anything I’m defending them because they get the short end of the stick and perform better than the average major nation player and thus gaijin over tiers Italian vehicles.
You make assumptions that I claim there’s not a compression issue because I didn’t explicitly deliver a 57 page thesis on the multitude of issues that war thunder faces.
I have never in my life encountered someone who jumps to so many different conclusions so quickly, and frankly I’m impressed!
Yes, there’s a compression issue.
Yes, the problem still exists for the F-104s even if/when 13.0 range gets decompressed. You mentioned the JA37 yourself, better than the F-104S that is the same BR in essentially every single way, save for maybe top speed on the deck.
But please, tell me about the other random vehicle I forgot to mention here and how apparently that means I’m assuming that all Italian players are dumb and indirectly arguing that the F-14B should actually be 10.0 because I didn’t explicitly state it deserves XYZ BR rating.
These people complain about top tier vehicles etc… yet i bet, that the majority have only played 1 nation at top tier due to the bad grind.
@Mafiat_595
I have every air tree completed, and I identified two compressed BRs for air RB: 9.3 and 13.0.
Your issue with F-104S is obviously 13.0’s compression, otherwise you would’ve never mentioned F-16A, and F-18A.
You indeed should stop making dozens of assumptions about others.
JA-37C and Mig-23ML are prime examples of what 11.7s should be.
F-4E and F-104S are prime examples of what 11.3s should be.
F-104S is the fastest 11.3 in the game.
F-111F is the fastest jet in the game, and the fastest accelerating 11.7 in the game.
Who in their right mind would advocate for lowering rewards ever lmao. They should increase the impact of destroying a base so that there’s both a reason to destroy them and to protect them. Both teams usually have bombers so it’s not a 1-sided thing.
In their current state the F-104S’s should be 11.0, and the F-104Gs should be 10.7, because hey are not meaningfully better than anything at their BRs. The F-4F is better than the F-104G, the J-7D is both better and at a lower BR, and the F-4E/any 11.3 is better than the F-104S.
I don’t think viewing compression as something isolated in a single BR is a good starting point. It leads to underestimating true compression, and not noticing other compressed BR brackets, such as the whole 7.0-9.0 and 9.3-10.0 brackets. Take the Mig-15/17 series. If we wanted to give early jets a bit more room (because it’s needed) the Mig-15/17 series would need to start at 8.7, and end at 10.0 in order to prevent objectively and quantifiably better planes at the same BR. If we wanted to do the same to the F-5s, we would start them at 10.7, and end them at 12.0.
Do you not see the massive performance gap between those 2 planes? The F-4E has a much better airframe, more missiles, and it can use Aim-7E2s without needing to get rid of its gun.
Maybe the F-16 and F-18 were not the ideal examples to use, so lets look at some better ones. The JA37C is not an 11.7, it is 11.3 in air RB.
JA37C has:
The Mig-23 is in fact faster than the F-104, especially if you want to carry any significant amount of armament/ordinance in the starfighter. There’s a Mig-23MF at 11.0 which has:
J-7E at 11.3:
The J-8B, probably the best match for the F-104S so far that I’ve listed at 11.3:
So, please tell me with a straight face that the F-104S is ideally balanced at this moment, and decompressing 12.0-13.0 will make it suddenly as good as these other aircraft.
And to be clear, before you go and make even MORE assumptions as you love to do here, I’m not complaining that other vehicles at 11.3 are good, it’s great that they’re capable, just makes no sense to call the starfighter an equal peer, it’s not. You also seem to forget that, at the same BR as the Mig-23MF that I previously mentioned, you have an F-104G that is slower than the F-104S (meaning the Mig-23 can definitely keep up) and carries a whopping 2 Aim-9Js. At the same BR as an MTI, SARH slinging, all-aspect IR missile-carrying, very fast, excellent energy retention and flight model-having Mig.
What I’m saying here is common knowledge. Maybe you have some secret genius that apparently exceeds all other WT players, but anybody who has played the Italian F-104s, 9/10 will agree they are not correctly rated. But I’m sure you have some secret answers we are all missing here :)
So the F-15E should be 13.3 because the F-15C is marginally better?
Citing the J-7D is further evidence of how correct F-4Es and F-104Ss are.
You didn’t read any of my post and that’s obvious.
I already said 9.3 air is compressed. 9.3’s compression causes issues down to 7.0 BR.
7.0 - 9.0 is not compressed, for if those were compressed the maximum BR would have to be 11.0 currently.
Read posts before responding next time.
@Mafiat_595
Thank you for admitting the F-104S is the correct BR by citing another under-BR’d jet: JA-37C.
J-7E trades speed for maneuverability.
J-8B is quite literally F-104S and F-4E equivalent.
Your posts are the only ones here that made assumptions.
The fact your post sees yourself as far more intelligent than all F-104 players is evidence enough.
This post was flagged by the community and is temporarily hidden.
No, because it’s not meaningfully better. It can easily be considered a sidegrade rather than an upgrade.
The J-7D is a better plane than the German, French, and Italian F-104Gs, and is at a lower BR. Those F-104s should all be 10.7, while the J-7D should be 11.0. None of the F-104s are better than the majority of 11.0s, such as the Mig-21Bis, F-4F, F-5E, or even the Shar FRS.1.
I did read, and I don’t think you are approaching BR compression from the right angle. Saying that just a single BR is compressed isn’t wrong, but you will need to add space in other places in order to properly decompress and rebalance the game. Compression won’t be solved by looking at a single BR, and you need to look at a wider BR range.
The J-8B is an F-4E and F-104S ASA equivalent. The F-104 is slightly faster with better IR missiles, but it’s RWR is one of the worst, and it lacks a gun if it wants to use SARH missiles.
@Mafiat_595
You do not speak for F-104S pilots, no one does. I certainly never did and never will.
I however see far more people that play F-104S complain about 13.0’s compression causing issues for them, because they know where the issue is.
Your posts however never once cited BR compression; in-fact your posts have only ever cited under-BR’d jets that are under-BR’d due to 13.0’s compression.
Ironic that your posts claim to be speaking for F-104S pilots while projecting your behavior onto others:
I will repeat that I speak only for myself, as my posts have indicated.
I did cite many F-104S pilots in this post itself, which took the time to learn what was at issue rather than complaining their F-15E was over-BR’d and needs to be 11.7 again.
@Ion_492
The J-7D is its BR because of 13.0’s compression, citing it is evidence that the compression is the issue, not the BR of F-104S.
Citing any and all under-BR’d jets is evidence for my statements.
If your logic is entirely that the F-104G and S are not overtiered because everything around them is undertiered, then we are discussing the the same thing. That means we both agree that the F-104S is currently not fairly matched with its current BR counterparts (not what you think its peers should be). If every vehicle I cite is apparently under-BR’d, just maybe don’t you see how that means the F-104G and S are overtiered? Just because you phrase it as apparently a massive number of under tiered vehicles and I state it as a few specific vehicles being overtiered, we are both advocating for the same balancing changes and you’ve wasted an incomprehensible amount of time on a topic which is now entirely unrelated to the original discussion of the effectiveness of fighters at base destruction in air battles.
You get it!
Cool, we’re on the same page.
I apologize if my posts sounded harsh as my only intent was to showcase many under-BR’d jets, while I am pushing for 13.0 decompression which would increase all the under-BR’d jets by at least 0.3.
If 0.3 is not enough after a few months, then I’ll lobby for decompression again.
Also the reason why F-104S was moved up to 11.3 in the first place was because at 11.0 people were getting 5+ frag matches consistently while their other jets were getting 2:1 KDRs.
It was blatantly OP, of course this was before 13.0’s compression moved stuff like JA-37C, F-16A, Tornado F3, JA-37D, and F-18A [to name the ones off the top of my head] down.
Nerfing rewards is generally bad and won’t actually stop base bombers
Ok, I think there was a lot of confusion and I definitely was too harsh, I apologise. I definitely see where you’re coming from, and given that in order to decompress it will require some current vehicles to move up regardless, yes you could argue that they are under-tiered I suppose.
I’m glad we can more or less agree and again sorry for being a bit too passionate in my disagreement at times. I got frustrated with the disconnect that was happening and that’s not necessarily fair. Importantly, we understand each other now and we can agree that currently the state of balance in many areas is problematic, though most WT players would frankly agree to that.