Lets talk about the state of Germany

Machinery of War Discussion
926

This is a very important point.

Anecdotes will only take you so far, that much is clear, if we compare impressions alone the discrepancies should be a big warning sign that something is off.

But selection/sampling bias is also something to watch out for. You might find someone playing a god tier match on YT and think to yourself that you’re a Neanderthal in comparison, but then look at their stats and see they’re just like you: they have good games and bad games.

Not to say that exceptional players don’t exist of course, they absolutely do. Just that you should always keep bias in mind. I make videos out of my best matches because I want to remember them, and I’m quite proud of some of them, but I certainly don’t make videos of the matches where I get my ass kicked and lose badly, and yet they exist.

And their opinions are subjective too. When I was first spading the German TT I heard so many “the Jagdtiger is absolutely terrible” takes from more experienced players that I only half heartedly spaded it at the time. Then, I played it some more, started liking it, and it’s now my favourite vehicle in the game.

The way people generalise, judge each other, and actively try to “own” their fellow WT players is quite perplexing to me.

1 Like
927

That really has nothing to do with potatoing shots, I’ve been on the both sides of the argument shooting the BVM perfectly through the carousel and it killing me in return, and me being shot in my carousel and killing the guy in return - this is what a busted damage model is and why BVM is to me a low skill floor vehicle.

A sure-kill shot SHOULD be sending you back to vehicle selection screen, not barely cripple or do nothing to you (yes, this happens to other MBTs too, but BVM is still the biggest offender of the unspoken rule).

Look at it like this, BVM at its introduction was really nothing special - just a T-80U with better thermals and slightly better gun-handling (iirc it didn’t have 40 deg/s elevation at that point in time, in fact i’m 70% positive it and the B3M were runnin around with 30/5 gun handling back then), MBTs were also significantly less survivable back in 2021 (Western ones included), which made BVM overall balanced against its competition.

All this changed soon after; UBH package was added, ERA’s were given shatter mechanics against APFSDS, whereas KEP remained unchanged and still couldn’t (they still can’t) bypass ERA’s like some do in real life, and most importantly, spall generation was lowered across the board.

Now all APFSDS generate less spall than before when penetrating a target, this allowed some Western tanks to go from 1-hit kills to 2-hit kills, sure, that was within expectation given how empty those vehicles are on the inside since modules and structures aren’t really modelled, but what it really did (coupled with already low detonation chances for MBTs across the board) was give vehicles with exposed hull racks a major survivability buff.

Later on Gaijin started to slowly implement spall shields, which lowered the amount of spall even further; see BVM’s spallshield around the carousel for example.

All of this combined into a single huge fuck up which buffed the T-80BVM to insane levels of performance back in late 2021 and early 2022 and gave it its low-skill floor status in my eyes. This wasn’t some “russian bias” type of buff tho, it was an intentional change to game mechanics that simply happened to benefit the BVM the most.

6 Likes
928

All of science is “personal experience” written down.
Also, video evidence objectively isn’t hearsay.

929

eh not really no

1 Like
930

I can send you video evidence of me dropping a nuke at Iberian Castle with the JT in a 7.0 match. Is it a true datapoint? Yes. Is it scientifically representative of my performance in game across thousands of battles? No.

That’s not what “scientific” means.

2 Likes
931

Which has nothing to do with collecting cause of death data.
Learn what science is.

932

Haha, alright. So tell me, how have you constructed the sample in question, which 2A5 and Soviet players have you selected?

Obviously you cannot include matches you partook in, because it skews your perspective, and you can’t include CC videos, because you don’t know how they select and edit the matches. You have to actually go into the servers and look at replays of other people. Either randomly - but you can’t filter by vehicles, so that will be very inefficient - or perhaps you put out a questionnaire that players can voluntarily fill to have their replays looked at by you and other researchers.

Which sample size did you go for, and why?

And that’s just about data collection, before we get into anything else pertaining the actual analysis and conclusions of your “study”.

Have you done any of that? Because it sure sounds interesting!

If you haven’t, and are indeed just talking about your own player experience and content creator videos, what you’re describing isn’t science, but empirical observation at best, and personal anecdote at worst.

lEaRn WhAt ScIeNcE iS.

Lol. Lmao, even.

3 Likes
933

I’ve seen ammo blacking out on loads of different vehicles at various BR ranges, you are complaining about a bug.

Seversk is perma banned on my list, one of the worst maps in the history of map creation, not just in WT.

And you still have bad takes, I doubt that will change over time.

Never said 2A4 is the best, just that it’s more than fine at 10.3.

I’ve been through that as well, but encountering bugs (ammo and fuel tanks eating shells) has nothing to do with skill from any party involved. They just tend to happen, your (lack of) skill will hardly be relevant in that matter.
This is why I mentioned poor reverse speed and gun depression, which are the features that are newbie-unfriendly and are present all the time while operating the said vehicle.

Don’t get me wrong, I think BVM is really strong, especially in the hands of someone experienced that know how to bypass disadvantages mentioned above.
But, for someone who just started the game, I believe 122s would be a better pick to learn the maps (and the game) with.

I agree, I doubt Gaijin is even capable of purposely buffing just one nation. Most of the issues and bugs are a result of shoddy coding and can be spotted on plethora of vehicles in literally every rank.

1 Like
934

It over buff overperform the less spall until nowadays and Gaijin can’t even get the honest answer to the players that why this BS only apply only for Russian tanks? but when BVM shot other tanks? it spalls like hell and ammunition don’t explode is other BS that Russians tank can pull of I too ever experience that shot in the middle of the side of BVM the round right straight through ammunition and all it did it just commander and four black ammunitions? that happened to me too when does Russian ammunition acts like DM63? which irl it should send turret to sky high compared to the Challenger 2 it only take one black ammunition to kill Challenger 2 i never fail to kill Challenger 2 with ammunition hit really and most of the western tanks have spall liner yet it does not work in the game and handholding for Russia like these is why I hate Russian tanks in the game just only want to kill them for fun and don’t even want to team up with them out of disgust

935

Random, because as I said cause of death doesn’t matter who’s playing the tank, it only matters who they’re facing, which is random.

Cause of death doesn’t skew my perspective at all because I’m not the one causing the death of me.
Bias physically isn’t possible unless I’m accusing people of cheating.

IDK why you’re so defensive about your Russian tanks.

You mentioned questionnaire in regards to cause of death… lol
You’re begging me to do a study that has bias in it…

936

I don’t play top tier and I only play Germany, so I don’t have a dog in this fight. What I take issue with is your statement that

Which is epistemologically completely false.

1 Like
937

I often get the temptation to ban it purely because of how often the matchmaker shoves it in my face, it’s incredible. It’s visually uninteresting (in both versions), incredibly repetitive no matter which cap you go to, and incredibly boring to play whether you’re winning or losing.

It’s really perplexing because you could in theory make an argument that it’s not so different from Advance To The Rhine, which is also small and fairly repetitive, and yet that map has an amazing flow and logic to it that never fails to deliver entertaining games. I don’t know what it is about Seversk that makes it so dull.

1 Like
938

In all honesty? It does.

Since low skill floor (disclaimed however: possible that my intepretation of the meaning of it is different) to me is about how easy a vehicle is to use and contribute with even as a beginner.

An analogy that instantly came to my mind is (if you’ve ever played LoL), Garen. Ridiculously easy to learn to play (low amount of effort required), but still insanely strong for the amount of work you need to put into him, and unless countered properly, will win the game by himself (good comparison here would be NATO tanks taking advantage of map terrain like hills to counter the BVMs which cannot fight hull down that well).

But, for someone who just started the game, I believe 122s would be a better pick to learn the maps (and the game) with.

Well, this would separate the playerbase in two;

  • those that played normally through the tech tree and learned along the way
  • those who paid their way into the highest ranks and thus learned nothing

Here I could argue that the BVM is still an easier vehicle to use than the Strv 122, but that’s imo subjective from one person to another, and thus I don’t think I’ll argue my position on it beyond what I’ve already said, because it would only result in an endless back & forth between clashing points of view.

1 Like
939

This is one of those skewed maps, A is for north, C is for South (sort of), but C gives lanes and A gives defalades. A can be dominated by north and swing to B and C, C is the south domination; but of course the style is set for each cap.

But people do, regardless of vehicle type, get drawn to peek-a-boo central, and when in certain tanks to do this seems counter productive, especially when you had to travel further to get there.

I try to “if you can’t beat 'em join 'em” but I generally can’t bring myself to do it when I get Seversk North. And when I get South I find it advantageous to go A and B as more often than not you outnumber them.

1 Like
940

You may believe that, but unfortunately the reality is different.

It’s just strange that these bugs only lead to one thing in some nations and have the complete opposite in others.
It was a direct hit in the ammunition depot

Edit: this Replay is from the 22. Oct 2023
so currently

1 Like
941

I kept Italy as my banned map until Seversk came out and the game quite literally gave me Seversk to play on 10 out of 15 times.
Obviously, I got really fed up and it’s banned ever since.

I’m sure I won’t find out, since it’s been banned for months now and until something even more atrocious comes out, it will stay that way.

In my opinion you can’t tie something that’s out of your control (and also randomly happening) to player’s skill.

Sorry, haven’t played LoL so I can’t relate.
But, even if Garen was, let’s say, bugged in a way and randomly refused to die from things it should’ve, I wouldn’t call it less skilled just because of that bug.
Yes, it’s stats in the end might be higher than what’s expected, but ease of use should remain the same, since you have the same kit available all the time so movement, attacks, skills, ultimates and whatnot do not change, ever.

I was speaking from a purely theoretical standpoint.
Someone new (thus having almost zero skill) could very well fare better in 122s than in BVM, since the former also offers quite a substantial protection while also lets you run back pretty fast (which is something a new player will perform often), and will also let you use more spots behind cover, until you learn what spots are actually advantageous for you.

Yeah, we found a quite subjective topic to discuss, so I guess it’s better for us to call it a day.

1 Like
942

The 122 is no better than a BVM just because it can retract faster.
The only advantage the vehicle has over the other Leopards is that it has a small additional armor on the bow.
The BVM is armored on the front and sides, as we all know, and that armor absorbs everything!

If you wanted to have an equivalent tank based on the Leopard, it would have to be at least a Leopard Revolution

943

Oh no no, my point is that the player’s skill is added on top of the % probability that the vehicle enjoys, this allows said player to perform better than in a vehicle which does not get the same probability.

But, even if Garen was, let’s say, bugged in a way and randomly refused to die from things it should’ve, I wouldn’t call it less skilled just because of that bug.

That’s part of the problem, it is both “bugged” and easy to use and perform in. If we took a Leopard 2A6 and gave it a full-on DM63 & DM11 load-out (btw both cannot physically be detonated according to Rheinmetall), a new player would still perform worse than in a T-80BVM because more than not, a 2A6s life depends on raw crew survivability, map knowledge and situational awarness rather than cheating death via a bug.

However if we up up game and make that into a Leopard 2A7V, a new player would dominate the current top tier, an experienced players could utterly and mercilessly crush top tier. This is similar to how T-80BVM currently is (or rather was since nowdays imo it’s a lot weaker now than it was in late 2021 i.e during its peak).

could very well fare better in 122s than in BVM

True, but this is also why I don’t want to dwelve into this subjective discussion further, since both MBTs are still map dependant (similar to the Tiger UHT, which on an open map can end the game by itself, but on a cluttered map is an RP pinata).

Anyhow, I gotta go now, was fun discussing this and not being called a “NATO fanboy” for once (since some users tend to jump to ‘name’ calling like that).

1 Like
944

Doubt it, as I said, 2A4 is pretty competitive at 10.3, no reason to reduce it’s BR.

I’ve experienced that bug on tanks from USSR, Germany, Sweden and Italy so far, so it’s pretty safe to say no nation is safe from it.

Are you saying this from personal experience maybe ?

122s hull armor is much more effective than armor of German Leopards, but you cannot know that since you never played them.

945

I wouldn’t see it that way.
In terms of model, the 2A7 would be a mix of 122 PLSS and PSO with L55
This does not make the tank OP, which can be observed on the PSO.
Gaijin won’t give the leopard his good ammunition either.