Lets talk about the state of Germany

Machinery of War Discussion
6713

It is far worse than any other tech tree in terms of Top Tier Air.
Gen 4 air (mostly)came out with Apex Predators update, December 2022.
(US had already received the F14 in Danger Zone, June 2022)
Germany received an event tornado and the ASSTA1. They were useable in the beginning for base bombing, nothing much else.
USA received TWO (2) F16s.
USSR received Mig29.
Other nations received F16s.

Germany FINALLY received the first Mig29 (first top tier air rb useable plane) for update Sky Guardians, March 2023.
With this update came UPGRADED F16s, Yak 141.
(Now Germany are behind and have been since the first iteration of the new gen jets.)

La Royale, June 2023, brought F14 to America, TWO (2) SU variants for USSR, Upgraded Italian Tornado.
Germany still behind. (Not talking about other nations being behind as well, just Germany.)

Sons of Attila, September 2023, brought ANOTHER upgraded F16 for US, Upgraded Mig29 for USSR.
Germany still behind.

it wasn’t until Kings of Battle, October 2023, that Germany finally received their Top Tier Air RB compatible jet. Neither Major nation listed (USSR or US) received an upgrade to the current F16/F14/Mig29.
Germany can compete here.

Air Superiority, December 2023, brought F15s to US/JPN//Israel, Su-27 for USSR, Gripen, J-11 for China.
Germany received a premium Tornado (after BR changes rendering it essentially useless.)
Germany is BEHIND AGAIN.

Alpha Strike, March 2024 brought in new Gripen, not much else, F20 is meh.
Germany still behind.

Seek and Destroy, June 2024, brought in AMRAAMS, Upgraded F15, AV8B+, for US, Upgraded Su27 for USSR, Upgraded Tornado for Britain, Upgraded J-11 for China, and Germany received the F4F Ice.
Please do not make me go into detail about the ICE. 3rd Gen airframe is UNUSEABLE in Air RB, anyone saying otherwise is full of it. Also no HMD, radar search modes.
Germany is STILL behind and this time the gap is MASSIVE.

Dance of Dragons brought in Upgraded A10 for US, upgraded Su24 for USSR, Jf-17 and J-10 for China, Upgraded F16 for Israel.
Germany still behind.

Let me say, I DO NOT care about lower tier aircraft. I do not care about how Germany performed a decade ago. I do not care their Rank 4 stuff is good. This is about top tier German air.
Please let me know if I got anything wrong, but this essentially sums up my experience with air.
Germany has been perpetually behind ALMOST every other tree in regards to air since Gen 4 introduction, and some trees even has not-fully-incorporated jets added.

This is why Germany players got VERY excited about the last leak, as we MIGHT’VE been able to have a plane that can compete at Top Tier (Since October 2023)(F-18) . Hopefully whomever was saying horrible stuff about Germany players regarding getting the F18 before the US can read through this and start to understand our viewpoints as German mains.

I can get into Helicopters if we want, but its in vain as we all know that Germany is lacking HARD in that department, along with the numerous amount of bug reports for the EC665 Tiger UHT.

I can also get into SPAAs, but again, I think we can all agree that its LACKING. Comparable nations have more Missiles Ready, 20mm Cannons, Radar that can track multiple objects, Missiles with 13m of proxy fuze. etc.

I can go into more specifics regarding missile count, etc, if needed.

7 Likes
6714

it still counts, since you want additions so much

uk players demanding canadian and australian vehicles all the time but then comaplain when they get it

6715

No need. I grinded out the ICE before it got the 2 ARAAM +2 AIM9 stock loadout. It was horrible. Even on the Dev server it was DOA. There’s a reason why everyone was showing off the new F-15 and Su-27, then just saying “Germany is getting a phantom…moving on”. It’s why I am under the impression Gaijin should just folder it with the Late when the F-18 comes (if/when it eventually comes). If Germany doesn’t get a reasonably competitive TT jet soon then no one is going to care for TT German air.

3 Likes
6716

I recently got the ICE, 420,000 RP is bat s**t insane for the jet.
I honestly don’t really care for the F18, would prefer the Eurofighter.

Its already happened. There’s been an outcry for fixes to the Tiger UHT that have been disregarded for years (8 missiles, vs 12-16 missiles at the same BR, No Turret). EVERYONE told G that the F4F ICE was going to be DOA when they released the DevBlog for it.
One can think that there is TOO LITTLE players using the vehicles, and that might be why they haven’t been fixed, as they don’t have enough data. Another reason might be that the people who DO have the vehicles, are simply more skilled players, and they can work around the shortcomings. If its the former, then one can assume that its BECAUSE of the lack of useable vehicles, which leaves us in a peculiar catch-22.
People don’t play top German air → Cant fix cause not enough data → People wont play German air.
Horrible situation all around.
I’ve said before that they can work in some of their magic to give Germany a useable fighter, as has been done in several other nations that were lacking, but alas, it hasn’t. When the F18 did leak, the amount of CRAP coming from players of nations that have 8+ Tier VIII aircraft was insane. So maybe they won’t do it anymore? Guess we’ll see.

1 Like
6717

I was really holding my breath when the F-18 got leaked but then someone mentioned the ICE…
I knew what was to come after that. Tried to make it work but its just not fun to play, even its missile loadout is subpar.

1 Like
6718

I mean even for someone who sticks to ground for 80-90% of the time it was kind of obvious that the 18C wouldn’t come as a time exclusive to anyone.

6719

Agreed. Had a feeling we would NOT get the F18 before US, OR the EF2000.

I just can’t comprehend though, why this was added NOW. It might’ve? been fine a few updates back? But then it wouldn’t have the AMRAAMS, so would it have been fine? IDK.
Adding this with the likes of upgraded F15/16, Su27, Gripens blows my mind.

6720

Could’ve just Gaijined us a Portuguese/Romanian/Polish/Bulgarian/Norwegian F16 (see JPN).
but no.
3rd Gen Jet instead. lol

1 Like
6721

Why Norwegian, or Romanian? Literally most of those options make no sense.

Starting to sound like the british

1 Like
6722

Just mentioned as they were EU countries that used the F16 that aren’t already sub-trees of other nations.
And that Germany has a Militaristic Relationship with said countries. If other nations make sense, i can replace them with that, but this is for thinking about what they COULD’VE done.
(idk 100% if romania/norway are already subtrees)

6723

Romania will probably go to italy as they share more ties and already have some of their vehicles and if the old leak list with the F18 is to be trusted they will get the Romanian OSA. Additionally as ive already mentioned with other players who seem to think my home nation would go to Germany or Norway literally ignored gaijins statement from when they planned to make Sweden a nordic tree, Additionally we have more ties with each other than that of Germany, it would make less sense for any of the nordic nations to be anywhere else. I shouldn’t even have to explain why Poland shouldn’t go to germany i can accept the 2PL but as a sub nation no.

As for the bulgarians and Portuguese i have no say, im not familiar with their ties to Germany but it seems off. If anything Austria and Switzerland seem to be what Germany will get not that germany needs a full Subtree. Though i wouldn’t mind seeing Swiss ground and Austrian ground vehicles be added.

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6724

Additionally if gaijin had plans to give nations gap fillers then Sweden or Britain wouldve had 4th gen F16’s to deal with the F16 and Mig 29, that didnt happen. I assume germany will also just again have to wait until the F18 is here. Do i agree with them being stuck with the KWS no. I despise gaijin letting stuff like that happen. Do i have any effect or pull when it comes to who gets what? No. Again i doubt we will see Germany get an F16 before the F18 but it could be nice to see it be added. For now all we can do is wait. Posts like this asking for 5+ nations remind me far to much of the muh commonwealth and were entitled to x and x posts.

As per usual for giving my opinions here i expect more hate mail or my posts being hidden. Any and all DM’s would be nice in either English or Danish thank you.

6725

Did you read my ENTIRE post?

Since the update in June 2022, German air has been lacking.

99% of this post is pedantic. Ignoring the main point of my posts. I am NOT saying those should 100% be in, they COULD be in.

Please think about my post. Feel free to replace the nations I listed, with ones that COULD work. This is a thought-experiment of what they COULD’VE done, instead of waiting then releasing the ICE.
Please think about other nations getting vehicles and armament to help their trees when they were lacking.

F*** Them. I’m not going to do that as we are having a good discussion lol. Anyone else chiming in without helpful posts are the Peanut Gallery and should be ignored. It requires more than 70 IQ to have these discussions, and I can tell you are above that.

6726

And i gave you two nations, the swiss as gaijin for whatever reason put the Netherlands in to France idk it makes no sense to me when they couldve just placed the swiss there instead but whatever gaijin does as the snail guides. Then austria could also exist as a subtree as they have close ties to germany. These are the only nations I am familiar enough to suggest, i agree with other that germany should’ve gotten Argentina as a subtree as they already have Tams in the tree and also iirc are in the works to procure F16’s from Denmark. Though i am not familar with their relations. Similarly to how i stated that Bulgaria and Portugal are also unknown to me. Youd have to explain your reasoning for them aside from they have an F16 that germany could get.

As for air for Germany i personally don’t care if thwy wouodve gotten the Su 27 that East germany was going to get before the reunification. Japan got an F16 that was based on the prototype f16 which is why it weight the least of all the ADF’s, ino the Su 27 wouodve been a more realistic option. Additionally stuff like the Mako which yes was never finished imo wouldve been cool but these arent valid options by most of the communities standards. Id like proper CAS on germany as the Tornado imo doesnt cut it compared to other options at top tier. As for what coukd fill these gaps domestically i dont think there is anything. For the time id like something to be added as Germany lacks serious air power but i assume this is gaijin ignoring this problem until other nations can have access to the F18. I doubt we will see Germany get a proper subtree until Japan is given theirs, but it seems likely to me that Germany is in line to receive a subtree with some gap fillers. Probably nothing to the extent of moat sub trees as Germany is mainly lacking at top tier air.

1 Like
6727

I think this is the problem as I assume this as well.
But it could be a balancing game, do you want to take the heat from the community regarding putting a prototype/not finished jet, or take the heat from players of that nation? Seeing this, its the former as there’s more community than German mains.
But I also think that people see:

and

and then think Why Not? If they can do it for one nation, why not the rest?

6728

I mean the ostwind, Zerstorer, Zrinyi I are all fictional if we go by their model since none of them existed in the current way they are in game. Even more so look at naval for paper designs that are here. Imo this is a game, balance and fun should be first. If i wanted dont get me wrong paper stuff and trial stuff is iffy but im fine with them IF there are no other options available both domestic and subtree wise. Its why i have such a gripe with the T 80 U and the Mi-28A, the T 80 U couldve been a patria or the Christian II. The Mi-28A and AHS have no replacement and thus were added. If someone can find something to replace them im fine with them leaving but i hate this whole a rule for all but not for thee type stuff. It annoys me when if we use that lgic of giving BS vehicles it could fix so many other nations problems.

1 Like
6729

wdym Sweden hello???

6730

I’m pretty sure that gaijin has said that Norway will come to warthunder as premiums for Sweden!

6731

No, they have said nothing of the sort, Smin stated when asked by shini if it was a subtree of sweden he stated thst it wasn’t though he couldn’t see them going anywhere else. It would probably be a huge fight if they were to go elsewhere and it wouldn’t make sense for them to go elsewhere.

1 Like
6732

Yeah there is no other nation than Sweden that i think Norway should go to