The 5.3 and 5.7 lineups have only slow tanks (tigers, panthers and pz4/70). No light tank to flank or to spot. A great lineup needs a mix out of mobility, armor and great guns. Germany at 5.3/5.7 has only 2 of these and thus can be defeated with flanking and capture point rushing.
6.3 is great though but the 5.3 and 5.7 lineups aren’t.
Light tanks are simply the best tanks because the rule in war thunder is “don’t get hit in the first place”.
It was buffed for the update, now with a little bit of luck you can actually hit targets around 8km. Pantsir obviously still crushes it in every way though
Unpopular BRs will get screwed more than popular ones.
TS players are surely above average players, I doubt someone new will go through a hassle of looking himself up on TS, not like they even know what that is.
So those stats you are looking at are probably from the best 1-2% Tiger players out there.
I don’t think that’s hard to explain. Japan is a minor nation so it’s players should be better on average than players from the big 3, which could explain higher K/D.
WRs might suffer because, at least from my experience, Japan is frequently matched with Germany.
You can have a situation where 2-3 Japanese players simply cannot carry rest of their team, thus resulting in a loss with those players having pretty good K/D.
You can always use VK 3002 as a pseudo light tank, it is pretty speedy and has basically 6.0 gun. The sheer number of great tanks are what’s making this lineup great. You have great TD in Waffen, one Tiger, two Panthers and a solid SPAA.
Only real light tank from big 3 in that BR is US’ M18, but guess what, it is open topped, which puts it as a prime target for every aircraft and MG fire.
Will they? When I play 4.3 and 7.7, I get a much higher number of downtiers than usual. In fact, full uptiers to 5.3 and 8.7 are very rare (I say this with more confidence with 4.3, because I’ve played it a lot more). The BRs where I personally experience full uptiers the most often are 5.3 and 6.7.
I suspect that is the case as well, although for the users that were looked up by someone else, the picture may be more confusing.
I assume you’re being hyperbolic. I consider myself an average player at best, and I have a 50.42% win rate with the H1, and 55.3% with the E. K/d is 1.5 for the former, and 1.6 for the latter. That seems to be more or less in line with the overall TS results for those tanks, and I doubt to christ that I’m even an order of magnitude close to the 1-2%.
It could explain higher K/d, but not this high. If it was, say, 3 to 1, then sure. But 5.42 is god tier.
And there’s more than that, there is another way in which the data here doesn’t really make sense, and I’ve seen this happen before in plane stats on TS, too. And that’s the fact that kills per battle for the Heavy Tank No.6 are higher than kills per death: a whopping 6.8.
That doesn’t seem possible. Even if you spawn in a backup every single time you die, there will be many matches where you survive to the end, especially the matches you win, which in this case is 50% of the pool. That’s why kills per death across TS are higher than kills per battle. You can play three battles in a row, not die, score two kills per battle, and you’ll have a K/b of 2 and a K/D of 6…
Think about it this way. How many times have you been in a match where you were carrying the team, and you lost heart-wrenchingly by a very narrow margin at the very end, despite all your best efforts, when another player or two doing a bit more would have been enough to turn the match?
Well, a 6.8 K/b is that margin. Many of the matches that go absolutely down to the wire would be decided by the player being so good. Many times that I’ve ended up narrowly missing on a win in a similar situation, that would certainly had been a win if my K/b was that high, and it isn’t. Not even close.
Hell, this is 5.7 we’re talking about, full uptiers to 6.7 give you access to nukes, anyone whose average is close to seven kills per battle will be dropping enough nukes that their win rates will reflect that for sure.
I agree that the lineups at this range are amazing, but it’s also true that the lack of a light vehicle is a handicap. Even if you do use the VK, it’s basically out of the question that you will be capping first, unless another nation on your team has access to light vehicles. And given the fact that light vehicles also get the airstrike discount… yeah.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t even enjoy playing light tanks. I can just tell you, from my personal experience and observation, that in a game built around capping points and the point-streak-power-up of CAS, you often start on the back foot for that reason alone.
PAK Puma should have been in the tech tree. I’m even more convinced of it now that I have it (lucky ice cream bucket drop).
Let’s test that hypothesis, in so far as what we can ascertain from TS. We’ve looked at Tiger H1, Tiger E, and Heavy Tank No.6.
Sticking to that methodology:
M4A3E2 has 53.03% win rate and 1.9 kills per death. Stats that almost perfectly overlap with Tiger H1.
IS-1: 45.19% win rate, 2 kills per death.
No British heavy at 5.3 or 5.7, so I’ve looked at the Comet: 39.64% win rate, 2.22 kills per death; and the Challenger, 38.03% win rate, 2.21 kills per death.
China has no heavy in that vicinity, so I went with T-34-85 GAI. Win rate is 64.93%, 1.98 kills per death.
Similar story for Italy. M36B1 is at 60.06% win rate, and 1.45 kills per death.
The French Jumbo is at 53.97% win rate, and 3.21 kills per death.
As for Sweden, the Strv 74 is at 55.19% win rate, and 0.71 kills per death.
Looking at this, it seems like the 50% win rate of Heavy Tank No.6 is unlikely to be an anomaly related to being frequently matched with Germany. Italy also is frequently matched with them, and they seem unaffected, and moreover, win rates hovering around 50% seems to be the norm, with the T-34-85 GAI being the outstanding performer here.
So, no, Thunderskill’s data does not support this conclusion.
EDIT: Tiger E at the same BR has a 58% win rate. They are also “matched with Germany”, lol. So even if the Heavy Tank No.6 was matched with Germany in every single game, it should have a similar win rate on account of being on the same team. Let alone when you include that it has much higher K/b and K/D.
The alternative would be that the Heavy Tank No.6 is matched with Germany only on the matches that Germany loses. Which seems a tad unlikely.
We can’t know for certain, a lot of people will have different experiences when it comes to down/up tiers. I’ve been playing lots of games around 9.3 - 10.3 (area where most popular premiums sit), and I got more favorable matchups as closer I were to that BR range. Meaning I got better matchups with 9.3 lineups than with 8.7, but it’s all just my personal experience, yours may vary.
I meant to say that most players on TS should be way above average for that BR. Also, you might be an average player in the grand scheme of things, but at that BR, someone with 10k+ battles surely will perform better than average. After all, 5.3 is an easily reachable BR and beginners are there en masse.
TS surely isn’t something we can trust blindly (or at all lol). We simply can’t know the real truth behind K/D that high.
You don’t need to cap first, light vehicles at this BR often have sub-par guns and will struggle with your frontal armor. You can simply brute force through their initial push, especially when your guns are overkill for everything that isn’t a heavy tank, and those surely won’t be able to match Panther’s mobility.
I’m currently going through US tech tree and I enjoyed playing M18, but that thing is quite literally a magnet for CAS. You kill someone and he comes back with basically any plane to shoot at your open top turret.
I don’t know what’s happening with Italy, I barely see them ever, regardless of the side. And when I see an Italian player, it’s most likely R3 or FIAT single-vehicle lineup rusher. In rare cases they are actually normal and trying to spade 2S1 lol.
True.
But as I said above, TS isn’t really competent to show us the full picture about anything, that’s why I tend to disregard TS data in threads about balance and stuff.
I disagree with that statement. For example Germany has tons of 4.3 tanks, all good, but only tank destroyers (hetzer, jagdpanzer, brummbar, stug, sturer emil etc.). But 4.3 is not a good br to play for Germany. uptiers to 5.3 are the rule and on city maps you are more or less lost.
You need different tanks for different maps. If you have only tanks from one categorie then you can’t react to the maps you play on
Russia has the pt76b aswell at 5.3 which isn’t great (workable after the reload buff) but still good in city maps and spotting is powerfull aswell. Hope they add sooner or later an east german pt76b just for doing daily tasks.
Nearly all nations have either a pt76 or m18 and that’s why Germany alone is not that good at 5.3 or 5.7. People underestimate spotting. Wiesel can decide entire games if you get into a good spotting position
TS - no. It is a guide line of certain players and all I might use it for is more indepth analysis of indivduals. It might be the only source of such data but that does not make it relevant.
Checking the actual players in the matches gives a lot lower , win rate is irrelevant ofc. Many of those in their Panthers/Tigers I share matches with do not have positive k/ds.
Point being Heavy is one of my most played vehicles (well, was) and had no trouble in uptiers whilst at the time there were many complaints at how weak the two Tigers were.
You look at TS for Heavy 6 stats (since I am super average), but of course that is now very limited in number/players (removed from sale to become a MP item…) which explains in part why one might get very different results to TT ones. My stats are average, but miles ahead of those I come across that help to continue to dunk my win rate (overall, not the Heavy, heck I only do PvE Air nowadays).
Jump on most teams and it is not much fun, as in less than other nations. And still Germany get more lone games than any other, and checking US/EU queues Germany seems to have the same domination in numbers at almost every tier, like US air for ARB.
One thing, I win most Tiger on Tiger battles as they do not angle where I do, and I hide the death-sentence of that ammo on the front left you can NEVER BLOOMIN GET RID OF. And bear in mind the Heavy 6 has the mine launchers, no roof MG, no APCR; it is inferior at the same BR as the E.
Of course, this is a generalisation but one that seriously put me off playing Germany. I never felt under-powered just under-teamed.
You are mixing things up, those tanks are certainly good, but TDs of that time in general aren’t very versatile (as expected from case mates), and only excels in a single playstyle.
5.3 Germany has really good mediums, heavies and TDs, only thing that’s lacking is light tank, which other countries might have, but they aren’t anything special.
PT-76B isn’t good, it can get penetrated by MG fire even from the front so close range engagements aren’t advisable. Also, it is quite slow for a light tank.
You underestimate how important good mediums/heavies are.
Oh, I agree. The only reason why I began this analysis was because of this statement:
Which led me to compare win rates in the context of Thunderskill’s dataset. That doesn’t mean I take that dataset seriously. In my daily use, I just track my own progress. But for this specific assertion, having a WR hover around 50% on TS is apparently not unusual.
I get this feeling as well, though I haven’t actually noticed as much German-specific dumbness as one might expect. I’ve had terrible teams with all sorts of tech tree compositions, and same for the good ones, and I’ve had good days and terrible days myself in terms of my own performance. Then again, it’s just my personal anecdotal experience.
Yes, I agree. Though with the qualification (and I stress qualification, it’s not meant to invalidate what you say) that most of those battles have been spent in tank destroyers. It’s actually one of the reasons why I’ve gone back and I’m playing every BR between 1.0 and 7.7. There’s a bunch of essential skill sets that I didn’t pick up because I laser-focused on TDs at first. The number of battles I have in Tiger Is and Panthers isn’t that high, and you can basically split it between matches I played on my first way through the game, when I was rushing research and was a terrible player, and matches played now.
Still. Even with that caveat, playing lots of battles gives you a huge amount of transferable experience that you can use in almost every vehicle. It’s only the really odd ones where I find you sort of have to start from scratch (the Maus is the obvious example in my personal experience).
You don’t need to, but it can be an advantage, especially because usually the owners of those light vehicles, get to CAS first if they secure the cap.
When I play German 5.3 and 5.7 and the match goes horribly wrong a few minutes in, it’s usually because of that particular chain of events. One of the things that made me decide that I need to get serious about learning SPAAs.
That’s strange. I get them all the time now, with the grind for the Hungarian vehicles and all.
I disagree with this with every fibre of my body lmao
I mean that in a friendly way. I love German 4.3, it’s my comfort BR, all of those vehicles are amazing. And tbh some are actually more than decent on city maps. The Jpz IV turns on a dime and if angled can survive a surprising amount of shots. And the Brummbaer is hilarious to use.
But, yeah. Lack of a good light vehicle between the Puma and the LeK is a weakness in the current tree.
I’d say it is pretty darn handy and always hope for some scouts. Germany really could do with one but just like I did for years with GB you made it work (up to 8.0 for the GB, before SA, using the AEC II). Being stuck with the puma until 6.3 does let down a nation that can often fight alone, in my opinion.
Oh very much isn’t just one nation. The factors of being a bit more popular and more chance of being a solo nation have, in my experience, worsened the performance relatively.
Ger teams always get blobbed by KV- teams, spiced up with T-34 around 4.0. They are hard to stop if they stick together. Sometimes good cas players in bf-110 (4 anti tank rockets, 2x 500kg bomb) and He-111 with that 2500 kg nuke) stop them. If not its just RIP Panzers. I don’t see any stellar German tech tree tanks around the 4.0 bracket. Just ger CAS is strong around that BR, though (111 with that mega bomb, 109F4, 110G2).
Every gun you have at 4.3 can one-hit-kill KV1s, provided that you know your shot placements. And the Sturer Emil just laughs at that armour 😁
It’s a BR where I can have good matches while relaxing. It’s unbelievable how I’ll play a few rounds of 6.7, which I love, and feel mentally exhausted from a good match with 3-4 kills… then go down to 4.3 to relax, and can do well without needing to be 100% on it.
Sure thing, you will get atrocious teammates no matter what nation and BR you are playing. But, at least from my experience, German teammates around BRs where Tigers and Panthers reside are in general one of the worst I’ve encountered.
Guys playing 9.3 premiums come close in second place though.
I think by playing TDs only will actually improve your skill faster. Most of those are really tricky to play, you need to have amazing awareness and positioning.
It’s always easier to transition from harder to easier, than vice versa. As I said above, you will develop game sense much quicker in something like a case mate TD, those things don’t really forgive overextending and brainless play.
True, cap&fly people can be a pain in the ass if they know how to fly well.
But, capping in a light vehicle also brings a lot of risks, multiple artys are often called to the contested cap point, making it extremely easy to die in very early game.
Even when I get Italy, it’s like 2 or 3 players at max in a 12+ team, and most of those are memeing around with R3, with occasional 2S1 grinder.
Scouts are always nice, but you need teammates that can actually aim at small German weakpoints to get results in the end.
I see what you mean, and you have a very good point. But there’s still not exactly 100% overlap at least in my personal experience - for example, “don’t be hit” is always part of the security onion, but the way you “don’t get hit” in a Dicker Max is different than in a Pz IV, if that makes sense. Knowing places on the map that you can exploit with a turret that you can’t with a casemate, stuff like that etc. There’s a different “flow” to your game.
Yes. The other thing it taught me was marksmanship. I think to this day it’s the thing I do best in WT. Whether that means very long range snapshots, or very accurate shot placement, or getting one of those “blink and you’ll miss it” shots on a moving enemy, playing German TDs etched this stuff into my muscle memory.
Slowly but surely, gotta work on the rest of the skillset… :D :D
Spamming suggestion moderators on the forum with a bug report won’t get it seen faster.
I didn’t spam i send the suggestion every 24h but they delete it within minutes every 24h i send the same suggestion to see it get deleted within 15 minutes
And ofc they still ignoring the rest of mu suggestions i know it took them a very long time to see if the suggestions are valid or not but 1 whole month i
believe this is more than enough
Sure, difference in their playstyle is more than visible.
But, I guess you can play Pz IV in the same way you play Dicker Max way easier than vice versa. With casemates, if they get your driver/engine/transmission, you are basically done for. With that constantly in your mind, you will think more and will probably get better at the game much faster.
Going from a TD to a “normal” tank shouldn’t be that hard, yeah playstyles aren’t the same, but I guess you would learn it very quickly when you have fundamentals sorted out thanks to TD experience.
That’s one of the most important things to learn, at least in tiers where LRFs and pin-point accurate guns aren’t a thing.
There are also a lot of different vehicles with various different weakspots, you firstly need to learn them and then be able to recognize the tank in question quickly, since bushing up your profile is a very common thing to do.
I have this thing about obsessively spending time in protection analysis, right. On more than one occasion where I’ve met a rare tank, that’s saved me - when I met a T54E1 in Stalingrad, I immediately knew where to shoot it with the Maus, stuff like that. This methodical process of memorisation has led to some amusing results in the past. I have JT in my 7.7 lineup too, and in an 8.7 game I had the pleasure of one-shotting an Obj 279 through the driver’s hatch (volumetric must have been very cooperative that day). But perhaps my favourite shenanigans are with the Dicker Max at higher BRs: I’ve gotten the opportunistic broadside kills on T-55s, Somuas, Strv 103s and a T-10M, stuff like that, and a god mode with a Dardo kill, but my two favourite by far were frontal one-hit-kills on a Conqueror and an M103. I can’t take credit for the first, target was mostly hidden behind bushes, I won the lottery with that shot, but with the M103, I knew exactly the one pixel that the 105mm could penetrate frontally.
Ridiculous. And fun. :D