Lets talk about the state of Germany

[el_Argentino]

It is a shame that they use a propaganda pamphlet as a source. In that same brochure only future plans are mentioned, but what ended up happening next was very different.

Better than a propaganda brochure, I prefer to take as a source Norberto Laffusa, an Engineer who worked at TAMSE since the beginning of the project.

TAM-A and VCTP-A came assembled to Argentina from Germany, to be tested by the Argentine Army. The Army commissioned multiple modifications. From there, two new tanks will be manufactured at TAMSE: TAM-1 for the Production people and TAM-2 for the Quality Control people.

The TAM-1 simply never existed as such since in the Production area, it was never assembled. Let’s say all the parts of the tank were there, but they were not assembled, their function was to explain to the assembly line how to assemble the series vehicles. Over time, the assembly line absorbed its elements and they were distributed among the first 50 vehicles to leave the TAMSE plant.

TAM-2 would serve as a “reference” vehicle, to control and maintain the quality of the series vehicles that left the plant.
Therefore, TAM-1 never existed as a vehicle and TAM-2 is exactly the same as the production TAM, and is still in service today.

TAM-A is currently a monument painted in the colors of Argentina (it still maintains the same original commander’s periscope, used on the Leopard 1, along with the Rh-105 cannon, which came from Germany). TAM-A DOESN’T HAVE IT and we never had a Marder engine.
Therefore, if it was based on TAM-1 it never existed as such. If it was based on TAM-A (first prototype of the TAM) it never had a marder engine.

Furthermore, that brochure mentions that the TAM withstands shots from 20 to 40mm ammunition (lol) and also mentions that Begleit57 had a weight of 28.5 tons (in the game it has 30) and a maximum speed of 78km/h forwards+backwards . Finally, that same source mentions the helicopter detection sensor…

Sometimes I think that gaijin sees us as stupid with his ridiculous handling of sources.

I attach extra images of the same propaganda, the same author, but translated into Spanish. This same author mentions that the XM-1 is at a similar level to the TAM. Very exaggerated propaganda in my opinion. Probably a very distorted view of the facts to obtain exports. At the end of the day, what they mention there as TAM-4 will be the standard TAM, with the NVD and the side skirts.

Spoiler

TAM-A with TRP 2A periscope anda Rh-105 cannon

Spoiler

[GHOST_KING5710]

Most stupid and unjustified nerf i have ever seen this is more proof that who ever works in there have no idea how to do the searching in the correct way.

Not to mention if they believe in the documents they send then they should change the weight to 28.5 tons instead of 30 tons, increase its maximum speed to 78km/h instead of 71km/h and give it APFSDS

[el_Argentino]

and don’t forget the helicopter detection sensor, already reported a thousand times.

There is a capricious and very inconsistent handling of sources by Gaijin.
For some things you don’t need sources, for others you do.

In short, they adjust the BR movements of the vehicles based on the needs of their balance needs. What I just said is very good, what is wrong is justifying your “balance” whims with sources, only when it suits you.

When they want, they make a nerf and suddenly make the font appear “magically”. Furthermore, the value of these sources that they provide is often controversial, especially in the field of defense, where everything is always kept secret and the researchers are not professional historians, but rather enthusiasts of the subject.

The other day a mod asked us to present the manual for the Leopard 2A7V… it is almost implausible, especially when the photo speaks for itself.

[TEZACK27]

I want all of the boxers!!! RRRRAAAAAHHHHHH!!!

[Jεcka]

Here you go, all the Boxers.

[sugarstudd]

The first 3 TAM prototypes that were made were built before the Begleitpanzer 57, the vehicles were well undergoing testing trials and the 3rd prototype of the TAM was built before the Begleitpanzer was shown in meppen.
I’m going to share some secondary sources that piece together what I am trying to point out.

The vehicle was conceptualized to be built on the Marder hull , ive shared these sources on the old forum. But unfortunately the marder hull suffers from stress fracture when you put a 57mm let alone a 105mm gun on top of it .

Now here are the same secondary sources David Bowie posted on the report expect my version of the source is about a year earlier, they are using IDR 1979, mine is a 1978 version. Notice how they are practically the same word for word.

Here is where things start to make a bit more sense as long if you spot the discrepancies or at least notice differences in information being reported on .

Notice how it says trials , probably means the vehicle is undergoing all the good testing every vehicle manufacturer should do to make sure stuff works as it should .Already it mentioned the vehicle used what appears to be the 720hp engine as its found on all the production TAM’s .

Here is a even later edition that has basically the same info and a bit extra, this is from 1983-84 meaning the vehicle was for sale and saw development well into the mid 80s most likely . There was even a planned dedicated SPAA version with a radar planned , which I do have blueprints on and development pictures from the project but info on it is scarce and not worth making a suggestion.

Now I highly doubt that the information Jane posted in all their editions would carry over the same mistakes . I firmly believe the brochure which is considered a primary source to a certain extent is outdated and based on the initial concept that the vehicle was going to be using a Marder chassis and its engine .All the earlier editions of Janes and other secondary sources probably based their info on what was found in the brochure and presented to the press or interested parties.Considering how late into the mid 80s info on this vehicle kept being published the vehicle was further updated from its first initial showing in 1977. At some point the vehicle must have used the 720hp engine , unfortunately the only existing documents that you can consider a primary source is probably outdated compared to the final prototype that was built and tested .

I want to point out the the weight being 28.5 t in the brochure but later sources show it was 30t
In game its weight is currently 30t which I am going to bug report since the 2 primary sources clearly list it supposed to weight 28.5 t . Notice how in the last Janes publication also the vehicle was considered a demonstration prototype and not undergoing trial.
I strongly believe the vehicle used the 720hp engine and the nerf is unjustified .

[BerdoAirlines]

Since they are using this source to nerf the begleit, they should accept and add APFSDS to it. As well the helicopter sensor

[GHOST_KING5710]

Not to mention that almost all sources sey that it’s capable of using TOW or HOT atgms and not only TOW also in some sources they mentioned that the gun is capable of firing APFSDS plus all sources agreed that the vehicle top speed is between 75 Km/h to 78 Km/h and not 71 Km/h for the helicopter warning we have this as proof of its existence

[AlvisWisla]

@BerdoAirlines
Well helicopter detection sensors aren’t in-game period, so if and when they come I expect all the vehicles that have them IRL to get them.

As for APFSDS… I don’t know if a 10.0 Begleit would be great; very well could be, and I just don’t know.
HOT missiles might keep the Begleit 9.3 though.

[Hartsy1]

What vehicles outside of the begal would also have them

[BerdoAirlines]

Of course it would be good. Why only USSR can have a 2S38?

[AlvisWisla]

Sweden has had one far longer.
As I said in the post:

@AlvisWisla

I don’t know if a 10.0 Begleit would be great; very well could be, and I just don’t know.

[MXY7_Ohka_when]

Considering the enhanced armor and survivability of the 90C, I feel like the Begleit is more akin to the 90B, which is 9.7

[Nowel]

if it gets apdsfs, it would be quite similar to the 2s38, without irst but with atgm, it would be at least 10.0.

[UnHolySausage]

i’ve noticed that Crewless turrets its one of the main reasons why some vehicles go in higher tiers since it helps with survivability a lot

[Nowel]

you still have more first stage ammo, higher fire rate, atgm, better reverse, btw only the ags have actually been moved up for having a crewless turret, and you also have the vilkas and the freccia at the same br.

[UnHolySausage]

sometimes i think gaijin ways of balancing vehicles its assisted either by AI or by a rock paper scissor lol

[MXY7_Ohka_when]

@Nowel

atgm

I would hardly count that as an advantage, non-tandem ATGMs at that br are nothing to write home about

[Nowel]

it is still an advantage. for example you can easily kill the 292 thanks to the atgm

[UnHolySausage]

it is a big advantage tbh the atgm reloads fairly quickly and has saved me more than i can count but the extra pen on the HOT missile would def help specially with the damage i’ve noticed I-TOW damage its pretty low