Leopard 2A7V- The most underperforming tank in the entire game

[XromAzero]

The Leopard 2A7V is supposed to be one of Germany’s best and most heavily protected tanks, especially from the front. Yet in actual gameplay, its armor feels artificially weakened and the tank seems to become weaker with every update.

The problem becomes obvious when comparing it to the STRV 122. STRVs can actually survive and fight head-on engagements like heavily armored MBTs should. The 2A7V, on the other hand, can be crippled or effectively destroyed by a single shot far too easily. The same problem can be seen with Germany’s other Leopard variants, including the PSO.

For a tank that is supposed to represent Germany’s best protection at top tier, this is simply unacceptable. The statistics also show that Germany has been falling behind. At this point, Germany is becoming a nation that is not worth playing.

[Pheonix_RX01]

I mean France also doesn’t have their planes from the British but that’s not modified, it’s literally their plane with their flag on it.

DB-7 iirc

[Just_Baron]

@XromAzero

The Leopard 2A7V is supposed to be one of Germany’s best and most heavily protected tanks, especially from the front. Yet in actual gameplay, its armor feels artificially weakened and the tank seems to become weaker with every update.

I have a 70% win rate in it.

@XromAzero

The problem becomes obvious when comparing it to the STRV 122. STRVs can actually survive and fight head-on engagements like heavily armored MBTs should.

They usually don’t these days, as the only protection is in a middle line on the front of the hull. If you fire above or below that point, any APFSDS will reasonably penetrate it. In terms of practical protection, both the 2A7V and the Strv122B can stop any dart to that same spot.

The front protection profile is basically identical between the two, which I can understand disliking, as it doesn’t make sense from a technological development standpoint, but you’re not really less durable.

@XromAzero

For a tank that is supposed to represent Germany’s best protection at top tier, this is simply unacceptable. The statistics also show that Germany has been falling behind. At this point, Germany is becoming a nation that is not worth playing.

It’s unacceptable that you have the best MBT that can lolpen nearly everything while being among the most armored? Share some armor with the rest of us, man…

[CattierImp49341]

And China has the P-66 which America doesn’t. And the CW-21. This is not a German exclusive thing. It’s just that, in all these instances, the larger nation has plently of better and more well known alternatives that the smaller nation doesn’t.
Edit: also the A-29

[Iluminas]

Irl the hull would have the protection of the turret ingamee against KE and Heat and the turret would have even more

[Skywalker49533]

You know, saying that leopard 2a7v doesn’t have problems with its armor, while pointing to a merkava, doesn’t suddenly make 2a7v problem nonexistent, it just means that other vehicles are also in need of a revision, 2a7v not only has just blatantly wrong armor, it has stupid armor holes and the model is just flawed, which it clearly shouldn’t be.

Also you are wrong with the fact that ufp is pennable like that on the 2a7v, sure it can technically be true if you are above 2a7v, but if you are below it or on even ground the ufp will bounce, albeit it arguably should be better at degrading said apfsds even if you are higher than it i would assume, due to those additional composite screens on top

But again, its angle dependant

This thread has some truth to it, i mean, the shitty 6 sec reload ACED, the turret basket, the nato hump,the straight up incorrect max speed, they do just kinda fucking suck, tho i don’t wanna claim that the tank is shit or highly underperforming, no, even despite all that its is in fact one of the best tanks in the game, can still tank shots and the firepower is still fairly good, although, i don’t think we should ignore the problems that the tank has, and chalk it up to “Well, the other nations have it worse, so just deal with it”

[Skywalker49533]

Yeah see, maybe that’s actually true, i mean, there is like a 20 year diff between the 2a7v and strv122, amd im pretty sure gaijin themselves admitted the 2a7v armor is incorrect, but since no one really has a valid source that could be put to use, you can’t really change anything with any degree of certainty, and let’s be real, that wouldn’t be balanced in any way shape or form, the game does need actual balance in it so…

Really, i am not quite sure if it was a good idea to add 2a7v and 2a7hu in the first place(especially if the implentation is gonna be this controversial and just blatantly wrong, even on the most obvious fronts), i mean, they are just such modern vehicles with not much known about them, like, it was obvious it was gonna be wrongly modelled, same with sepv3, i mean, seriously, these vehicles are so modern, their implementation will always have a myriad of problems following them so i really, just, don’t get what was the point, it really does just feel like it was done purely for the hype and interest in the game, it’s like, there is no game as easily accesible as war thunder, where you can drive the most modern of the vehicles in use

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

the only flaw with the 2a7 is the reload 6.0s is too slow honestly should be like 5.3-5.5 so you could actually out load some people every other hand loader excluding merkava is a 5.0s

[Skywalker49533]

i don’t think its the only flaw, but it certainly is one that sucks ass the most on many occasions

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

its what i noticed most the armor feels fine to me but ive never used a leo irl so i have no clue what it should be like all i know it and the abrams are very similar armor wise and ingame there kinda similar

[Iluminas]

Oh for sure it was way to early.
The german community for the most part wanted something along the lines of the Strv122 protection.
There would have been multiple Leo 2 variants that could offer that but they had to go for the 2A7V

There were also multiple bugreports with sources to fix the armor wich were ignored

like this one here
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/xLDgCgt0rWp0

[Skywalker49533]

i mean, the thing about armor is, it is absolutely idiotic that a leo from 1996(strv122 and all its versions), is straight up better armored than one of the most modern leos currently in the world 2a7v and 2a7hu, and yeah the armor still works, its fairly goodm but i do wanna emphasize, there are actually some genuine problems with the model, and there are really weird armor holes and lack of armor at certain angles, that shouldn’t be a thing, it just feels like a low quality work to me
I still wouldn’t call it the most underperforming tank in the game tho no, ofc, its quite the opposite

[BACKRAGE44428-live]

the only weakspot i dont like is the under breech shoot cause i usually shoot from posistions like this cause shooting there some how knocks out the whole crew

[Just_Baron]

I’m not disagreeing with that at all, in-fact I agree, but to say it’s bad is just not right.

@Skywalker49533

You know, saying that leopard 2a7v doesn’t have problems with its armor, while pointing to a merkava, doesn’t suddenly make 2a7v problem nonexistent, it just means that other vehicles are also in need of a revision, 2a7v not only has just blatantly wrong armor, it has stupid armor holes and the model is just flawed, which it clearly shouldn’t be.

That is not what I said. Azero made the claim that the 2A7V has worse front armor than the Strv122, which it doesn’t. They are roughly equal.

I did state that this was obviously incorrect, as the 2A7V is a much newer vehicle, and that’s a different argument. My only statement was that the 2A7V is not a bad tank, and is, to this day, one of the best ground MBT.

@Skywalker49533

Also you are wrong with the fact that ufp is pennable like that on the 2a7v, sure it can technically be true if you are above 2a7v, but if you are below it or on even ground the ufp will bounce, albeit it arguably should be better at degrading said apfsds even if you are higher than it i would assume, due to those additional composite screens on top

I highlighted it to show that non-green spots can still be penetrated sometimes, as well as it being center mass for both tanks. Your statement on degrading APFSDS comes from how you don’t understand that 80.5 degrees is an autobounce for all APFSDS if the plate isn’t overmatched.

In other words, what you’ve shown isn’t the armor doing work; it’s the angle. Even the M1 Abrams with 60mm of UFP protection can autobounce at 81 degrees.

@Skywalker49533

This thread has some truth to it, i mean, the shitty 6 sec reload ACED

That’s the same reload rate as the T-80 and Leclerc.

@Skywalker49533

the turret basket, the nato hump

Other tanks have those as well. It isn’t Leopard exclusive.

@Skywalker49533

the straight up incorrect max speed

bug report it, and if it has been, send it.

@Skywalker49533

they do just kinda fucking suck

Once again, I have a 68% win rate in the 2A7V. It is a good tank.

@Skywalker49533

i don’t think we should ignore the problems that the tank has, and chalk it up to “Well, the other nations have it worse, so just deal with it”

I did not say that. Instead of lying, quote me. Azero stated Germany is falling behind and is a nation worth playing, which is such an absurd statement, as the 2A7V is a top 3 MBT in-game.

So I replied as follows.

@Just_Baron

It’s unacceptable that you have the best MBT that can lolpen nearly everything while being among the most armored? Share some armor with the rest of us, man…

I never told anyone to just “deal with it”; I was pointing out how hilariously absurd it was to claim the 2A7V is a bad tank when minor nations have been drowning in far worse states for as long as they’ve been in-game.

[Iluminas]

Well the OP never did say its a bad tank.

What he meant by underperforming he meant compared to irl.
And yes it was a kinda poor choice of words.

@Just_Baron

@Skywalker49533

the turret basket, the nato hump

Other tanks have those as well. It isn’t Leopard exclusive.

to be fair the gunner can override the turret and let the gun lay flat on the engine bay. this was also reported.
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/f0ZTEpNBPL8M

@Just_Baron

@Skywalker49533

the straight up incorrect max speed

bug report it, and if it has been, send it.

as for speed and more importantly accelleration this was also reported severall times.
https://community.pixstorm.ru/issues/p/warthunder/i/Z4GQoisgPtZJ

[Skywalker49533]

@Just_Baron

That’s the same reload rate as the T-80 and Leclerc.

except t80 has that reload from an autoloader, upon ressearch, you don’t need to either play the tank for 1000 matches or spend 2k gold on that ace crew, also leclerc is 5 seconds, not 6

@Just_Baron

Other tanks have those as well. It isn’t Leopard exclusive.

Certainly not exclusive, doesn’t make the tank better, now does it ?
I played 2a7v a couple months after it first came out, despite me being relatively new to top tier, still managed slightly more than 2 to 1 kd, i ain’t saying its a bad tank either.

@Just_Baron

Once again, I have a 68% win rate in the 2A7V. It is a good tank.

yeah, its still a pretty good tank, doesn’t mean that what i listed isn’t a pain

@Just_Baron

I highlighted it to show that non-green spots can still be penetrated sometimes, as well as it being center mass for both tanks. Your statement on degrading APFSDS comes from how you don’t understand that 80.5 degrees is an autobounce for all APFSDS if the plate isn’t overmatched.

In other words, what you’ve shown isn’t the armor doing work; it’s the angle. Even the M1 Abrams with 60mm of UFP protection can autobounce at 81 degrees.

your camera is at a bad angle my dude

The problem with that shot is, that’s not how you are gonna be looking at a leo, or well, you might be looking at a leo like that in certain situations, sure, but not on every map, not in every match, and i get that its the angle doing the work, but thats literally how those nato ufp functon, its the angle, and well, those composite screens on top of that paper thin ufp that only works due to angle, they are supposed to help that actually, perhaps they should help more than they currently do, which was my point.

@Just_Baron

I did not say that. Instead of lying, quote me. Azero stated Germany is falling behind and is a nation worth playing, which is such an absurd statement, as the 2A7V is a top 3 MBT in-game.

Wasn’t trying to upset you, was more so trying to make a general point of my own on that one , i got no beef with you dude.

[Pheonix_RX01]

To add to this @Leo2A6EX-live Smin already answered why they weren’t added to the German tree and this applies to all nations, when we asked for Sweden to get another bomber gaijin stated they have no interest because the nation had sufficient vehicle types at that BR, this also was the answer when asked for vehicles like the DB-7

[Just_Baron]

@Skywalker49533

except t80 has that reload from an autoloader, upon ressearch, you don’t need to either play the tank for 1000 matches or spend 2k gold on that ace crew, also leclerc is 5 seconds, not 6

Oh right, they did buff the Leclerc’s reload rate. I did forget that.

@Skywalker49533

Certainly not exclusive, doesn’t make the tank better, now does it ?

It means it isn’t a Leopard-related issue. It’s consistent.

@Skywalker49533

your camera is at a bad angle my dude

That is how a Leopard looks, especially hull down and pitched up. Beyond that, I’m not really following your point. I replied to them about the autobounce angle and barrel height armor comparisons between the two tanks, not the other way around. Also, my camera’s vertical angle is off and the image is zoomed out and cropped, so I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

@Skywalker49533

and i get that its the angle doing the work, but thats literally how those nato ufp functon, its the angle, and well, those composite screens on top of that paper thin ufp that only works due to angle, they are supposed to help that actually, perhaps they should help more than they currently do, which was my point.

When did I ever say that the armor shouldn’t be increased?

@Skywalker49533

Wasn’t trying to upset you, was more so trying to make a general point of my own on that one , i got no beef with you dude.

You’re defending the guy who claimed the Leopard 2A7V isn’t worth playing, along with a bunch of other absurd takes. All I said was that the armor isn’t in a bad state right now and that other nations have it worse, which they do. This whole conversation comes off as entitled. Other nations have been stuck at 40% win rates for years, with underperforming and often bugged armor that barely even hits 10.0 worthiness in their strongest spots, yet here you all are agreeing with a forum post titled “The most Underperforming tank in the entire game.” That’s laughably absurd.

There’s no point in fighting a single take I have said here. The Leopard has some of the best armor in-game and has the best conventional APFSDS in-game. Where exactly, compared to other tanks, is the Leopard 2A7V lacking in a way that other MBTs aren’t?

[Skywalker49533]

@Just_Baron

Other nations have been stuck at 40% win rates for years, with underperforming and often bugged armor that barely even hits 10.0 worthiness in their strongest spots

40 percent on what nations exactly ?
Also we are back to “other nations have it worse” argument
Nice winrate, on germany btw, its been that abysmal for a while now, and soviets only recently managed to get an even worse winrate, now the question is, is it the vehicles or the players ? Or both with equal measure ? Hard to say, i certainly don’t have that information, but that is besides the point.

@Just_Baron

you all are

Who is “you all are” i think i myself, on multiple occasions said that yeah, 2a7v, still a good fucking tank, we aren’t gonna acknowledge that, no ?

@Just_Baron

You’re defending the guy who claimed the Leopard 2A7V isn’t worth playing

Am i now ? I don’t remember ever mentioning that it isn’t worth playing and i am not too sure on what you mean by all the other absurd takes, i’ve given my stance on the matter, i think the tank does have its fair share of issues, and told about what i think are problems of the tank, or how is me mentioning that the model is flawed and other stuff i said, incorrect or biased ?
Are there no problems with how the tank is just because others 'have it worse" ? I don’t think that’s too fair of a stance, but that’s me.
And like i said, it’s still a pretty damn good tank.

@Just_Baron

is the Leopard 2A7V lacking in a way that other MBTs aren’t?

Well i myself would love a 5 sec reload like on an abrams, 6 seconds aced isn’t horrible, but that’s aced, and those take a while to get, and even then, its worse than a metric fuckton of other mbts, reload would honestly be kinda big, it’s a really important stat.

@Just_Baron

the best conventional APFSDS in-game

And yeah im sorry, but that doesn’t really matter a whole lot i mean, 3bm60 with 590 pen or dm53 with 650, on what occasions exactly, is that difference actually a huge deal ? More often than not it really isn’t so…

[CattierImp49341]

@Skywalker49533

now the question is, is it the vehicles or the players

Considering Israel (quite possibly the saddest top tier) has been holding an 80+% winrate according to that same map at top tier, I would pin it on players

Edit: and Italy has a higher winrate by over 10% while having the same main MBT