The only thing I can think of that the Leopard I being better than the Vickers is the reverse speed (overall mobility), acceleration, and the -10 gun depression (instead of the somewhat decent -7).
Waay better mobility, better Optics, better round, more gun depression, Rangefinder.
Vickers has a stab and a higher RoF, thats about it.
Im really not sure why people discount just how incredibly powerful it is that the Leopard 1 can match or outrun most Light tanks.
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Wat?
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Paper armor vehicle, unstabilized… yeah was really bullying and not getting one shot all the time and causing Germany to lose all the time by uptiering 6.7 Germany without vehicles to compete there, an issue that continues today, but even worse without the Leo.
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so you were just wrong… then you double downed and … made another wrong/incorrect/stupid statement.
Your last 2 messages are the opposite of accurate or correct.
Stop… You are embarrassing yourself.
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Just because your perception is different doesn’t mean I’m wrong.
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the Leopard 1 was arguably seal clubbing back in the day… So its not IF you are wrong, its how wrong are you. (meaning the basis is You are wrong.)
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It has never done so, there is also no logical reason why it would have ever done so, it doesn’t have a stabilizer, it doesn’t have an autoloader, it doesn’t have a fast reload, it doesn’t have a lot of armor, it doesn’t have a nuke shell, it doesn’t have thermals… how is it seal clubbing?
The only noteworthy quality is it’s mobility, which is better than WW2 heavies but not like an M56, T92, M18s, M41s, Ikv, Lorraine, Ratels, EBR, Eland/AML, Type 60 SPRG, Aubls, R3s weren’t able to match/counter.
Even at 7.3 it had a k/d of 1 to 1.5 at any point, which is as average as it gets.
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i think he was arguing the Absurdly part… which… it IS debatable… but not it being OP at 7.3
It was arguably the best tank, all around, at 7.3, back in the day.
Sure i think the 8.0 increase nerfed it a bit, but they moved quite a few other 7.3 ish tanks up to around 8.0 as well, so its about the same. Still a Very good tank and anyone that “thinks” otherwise hasnt played it (enough) or played against it (again, enough)
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how many games have you played As the Leopard 1?
How many games have you played with the Leopard 1, on your team?
and How many games have you played Against the Leopard 1?
all rough estimates, of course.
I’ve played plenty of 6.7 Germany where my entire team was endlessly sucked into 7.7 and 7.3 games which meant we had a few Leopards and the rest of the team was Tiger ll or worse whilst enemy teams were full of 7.3 and 7.0 since the restriction only applies to top tier.
I also fought against the Leopard often enough as Japan at 6.7 and I’d rather see a Leopard than a T34, T29, IS-3/4/6 because the Leopard just dies in one shot.
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The Leo-1 was undertiered at 7.3, and is still one of the best 8.0 tanks.
It has high mobility, a super good cannon, great optics, decent reload, and is overall a very solid tank.
All the tanks you listed have huge downsides, the M65 has no armour and is limited to 45km/h, the T-92 and M41s are not 7.3+ capable, the IKV is a Leo-1 equivalent, the Lorraine only has a conventional round which sucks past 8.0, the ratels are massive and not the fastest, the EBR is a rare event tank, and the rest aren’t MBTs.
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dont forget that with all the tanks he listed, the reload time is like 20 seconds… and so a leopard 1 can kill 4 tanks (or severely injure them) in the time it tanks (takes) for any of those other tanks to shoot once.
but yeah… hes… not correct.
he mentioned these tanks in a message afterwards too, which are the main ones i was focusing on.
T34, T29, IS-3/4/6
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It’s average in every aspect, it has good mobility but at those BRs that’s definitely not unique and it doesn’t set it apart.
A super good cannon, 105mm which isn’t really special, the British get their own L7s, Russians get the 100mm, Sweden gets the 105 as well, France get 100mm… I fail to see what’s so ‘super good’ about it in comparison to the competition, it’s a competitive cannon.
Optics are detrimental more than anything with the small maps, it just makes CQC awkward, the same issue Japan has or had with their insane zoom, it’s effective at long range sniping but you don’t need amazing optics to do that when long range sniping is about 1km.
Decent reload means completely average I guess? 8.7 to 6.7s is not special.
France has 4s autoloaders, UK has 5 second reload on their 105 and it’s fully stabilized on top of that at the same BR, an outright better vehicle minus mobility, T-54s are only slightly behind at 9.75 to 7.5 so a better crew can still put them ahead, OF-40 is pretty much a Leopard with a laser rangefinder, no one complains about that.
STB, same 105, same reload, more armor, stabilized, laser rangefinder, hydro suspension, 50 cal at only a .3 increase in BR.
Compared to an M60 which everyone acknowledge is mediocre, 105mm, same reload, same turret handling, same APDS, .50 cal, fair amount of armor and just worse mobility.
The Leopard is not better than any of these, it’s at best a side grade and is matched or beaten in every single category, sometimes by vehicles which have the same firepower but are stabilized and have a faster reload.
All you got is that the Leopard can beat or match anything in mobility, but that’s it.
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Thunderskill is not accurate.
Compared to other 8.0 tanks, the Leo-1 is perfectly fine at 8.0. It is the fastest tank, and it’s gun is on par or better than other tanks. Armour does nothing at that BR but slow you down. It also has a somewhat trolly mantlet.
You are underestimating how big of an advantage mobility is.
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At 8.0 it’s equal to other things at best and worse than many other things, it doesn’t excel at anything and is just 'okay and not the best 8.0 tank by any means.
Mobility is nice but it’s really not that big of a deal, only early game can it get you into a spot but beyond that it’s not a big deal as long as you’re not a Maus or T95 or something and you have a reverse speed of around 10 or higher.
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Then what is the best 8.0 tank?
Leopard 1 being a fast tank with the same armament as everyone else at 8.0, and even some 8.7s having the same armament but with better armor.
Leopard 1 is at least in the middle of the 8.0s.
If it was so bad then how come people were clearly playing it? Tiger IIs don’t get dragged to 7.3 if no one plays that BR. They get to stay at their own BR.
Also, every MBT at that BR either has bad mobility or bad armor. And are also all entirely unstabilized with the exception of the brits. In comparison the the M60, the Leo 1 has better speed but worse armor. In comparison to the T-54, the Leo 1 has better speed and a better gun with worse armor. The only vehicle with any advantage over the Leo 1 is the OF-40, and even then it has as much to do with the kind of people who play it as it does the advantages it has.
When the Leo was 7.3, it was at the same BR as the M48. The advantages of the Leo 1 over the M48 were (and still are) as follows;
Better Rounds
Better Speed
Better Gun
Easier Stock Grind (No APCR)
And it is smaller.
It is no secret that some of the German vehicles suffer at the hands of the players a little bit. I remember when Gaijin only wanted to downtier the German M48 (to 7.0), which was in its own right better than the American one (which was staying either 7.7 or 7.3, I cannot recall), simply because “the stats”.
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The OF-40, which is a slightly better Leo. IMO the next best one is the Leo 1, than maybe the Shot-kal? Or vice versa. But the Germans definitely have the best MBT out of the “Big” nations for that BR
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