L7 is the best gun at that BR.
T-54 doesnt use it, AMX 30 doesnt use it, AMX-30 is forced to use HEAT
T-54 rounds are not as effective
Cent Mk10 is good but its optics and mobility is terrible, the stabiliser and fire power is great.
Yes the Leopard is more of a TD than a tank but that was it’s design, lowering its BR will only lead to it dominating as it previously has.
neither of those have a meaningful armor, all can be easily pen by heat or apds and at 8.0 those are the rounds that youre going to face most of the time, they cant rely on the armor like the tiger 2 or the ferdiland do, so you trade mobility by meaningless armor, btw you do have better firepower than other 8.0… the amx 30s and the t54 are a thing, it may not have the firepower of the vickers or the of 40, but it is still better than many 8.0s.
Most of the vehicles he mentioned are close to Leopard, but T-54 is definitely worse off.
Worse mobility (especially reverse), gun handling, gun depression, reload speed and only thing it has going for it is it’s armor. Unfortunately, that armor will only work against APHE (which is being replaced by HEAT/APDS on 7.0+) and autocannons.
Buffing Leopard’s reload speed will make things only worse.
What is that supposed to mean? Can easily be penetrated by HEAT or APDS?
Which SPAA uses HEAT or APDS? Which tank uses HEAT or APDS when they don’t have another choice?
So you’re saying that a T-54 or M60 have no meaningful armor, despite having 2-3 times more armor than the Leopard?
Guess a T-34 or Sherman also have no meaningful armor compared to a Puma or Chaffee, because you can penetreate their armor.
The point of the statement was that lowering any 8.0 to 7.7, the Leopard wouldn’t somehow break the game fighting anything from 6.7-7.7. Compared to a M60 or T-54 that have much better armor protection.
The Leopard has no advantage over other 7.7 that would make it any better then them in a downtier.
At 8.3 we already go into the territory of laser rangefinder and nearly any vehicle has a stabilizer.
the gepards and similar, sidam… they have apds
almost all 8.0 have apds or heat, the only ones that do not have are the french autoloaders, and a lot of tanks over 7.0 also have them.
first they dont have 2 or 3 times more armor, second against heat or apds they can be penned just as easily as the leopards, this is why it is meningless-
well because their armor are able to stop common round at those br, even with the puma or chaffee you need to aim carefuly against those tanks. thats not the case with the 8.0 tanks.
the point is that there is no reason for the leopard to be a lower br than most 8.0 when it is not worse and in many instances it is actually better.
The optics, mobility, the gun, its ammo, the range finder, gun handling…
there are still plenty of vehicles without laser range finder or stabilizer over 8.3, and you still have the issue that most 8.0 do not have those either, let alone both, not to mention that in the case of the stibilizer they have an horrendous mobility.
Overkill and unusable in at least half the maps.
Good, but by no means unmatched.
Shared with other vehicles, namely the OF-40 at the same BR equipped with a laser rangefinder.
Also shared with other vehicles at the same BR.
See above
Garbage.
I have used several of the tanks that are being mentioned, and within their differences they all seemed to me essentially competent in their Br, everything would be based on knowing how to take advantage of their advantages, the stabilized of the Centurion, the speed and sights of the Leopard, the T-54 and its speed and decent armor, etc. It is clear that tanks like the Leopard and AMX30, which base their design on long-range defensive combat, are undermined by gaijin’s incompetence when it comes to making maps that are minimally correct for a tank game (and of the players for their conformism). But regarding the issue of speed, it must also be taken into account that in many maps, the one who arrives first to a certain point of the map has an advantage, so a Leopard or AMX30 will be able to squeeze the advantage of speed to at least get a good shooting position shortly after starting the game, something that a Centurion MK10 will not achieve.
let me remind you that i was comparing it with the 7.7s as he claims that “the leopard has no advantage over other 7.7”. So most of your points are quite off, specially the gun and ammo related claims as only the m47 have the same gun, most tanks with it are 8.0 and over
Do you realize that it literally has one of the best at this br?, it is better than the t54s, centurions, m48/60 and of 40
And the OF-40 is a straight upgrade over it at 8.0. As are the Vickers Mk1 and Centurion Mk10 thanks to their stabilizers, with the Vickers also getting a much faster reload.
The AMX-30 gets a coaxial 20mm and is identical everywhere else except mobility where it is slightly worse.
As I said above, sounds like the problem here is the T-54s.
You clearly haven’t tried using the Leopard 1 at a range closer than 600m.
As far i can remember the Leopard 1 in 7.7 never was a problem.
Yes, he is not a bad vehicle but noting special.
So you are telling me Leopard 1 deserve 8.0 just becuase Gaijin in his last stupid BR changes move all “similar” vehicle to 8.0 and thats all?
But Italian M47 armed with L7 stay in 7.7 and nobody complains.
I disagre with this but is your opinion and i respect that.
the of 40 is an upgrade over most 8.0s…
the centurion is still worse even with the stabilizer due to the abismal mobility.
except it has a worse ammo, and it doesnt have apds
To me it sounds like the of 40 and the vicker 1 are better than most 8.0, but even then 2 vehicles being better doesnt mean that the leopard should go down in br.
I have used that optic plenty of times, and worse than that like fixed 8x or fixed x10 and you can easily use them under 600m even 100m, youre over exaggerating, and i would pick at any time a x8-16 like the lopards than the x4 of the t54 49, the fixed x8 of the m60s or the x7-8 of the amx 30
Wrong, it is better in the majority of maps that feature close to mid range fighting.
Identical. And after the APDS nerf, the HEAT is better anyway.
I’d rather be in the italian M47. At least that one won’t get instakilled by an SPAA.
Delusional
AMX’s HEAT has lower velocity and can ricochet more often.
I don’t think nerfs really affected L7 APDS that much.
The centurion is worse in most maps maps even the one in cities.
the amx 30’s heat does less damage, has a worse overpressure, is slower and even after the change the apds does have it uses.
Spaag can easily kill it on the sides anyways while have worse mobility and optics
sure buddy… you are acting like having 8x is like having a telescope it is not that hard buddy
Maybe im wrong but some time ago someone posted both ammo stats via datamining and IIRC both haved exactly the same damage and overp. power.
they could have the same modifiers, but the dm 12 keeps having a larger he amount which would change the absolute values, we can see that quite on the overpressure in game.
Agreed on this, L7 APDS is still quite powerful. I consider it to even be pseudo-apfsds, its postpen is good enough.
It didn’t, DM13/M392A2/L28A1(same shell different name) actually got more pen at all angles from that update, While nearly all APDS got nerfs to angled performance., So it was buffed rather than nerfed.
its a fact that america and russia dominate at these brs germany is pretty mediocre not great not terrible
The meaningful armour, in this case, is less an amount of armour capable of stopping main calibre HEATFS and APDS, and more the baseline level of armour required to stop autocannons frontally, which the Leopard 1 lacks. I can say with absolute certainty that even the ADPS on the XM800T, which I believe has only 66mm of penetration, can completely kill a Leopard from the front within at least 200 meters. That’s pretty much scraping the barrel in autocannon penetration around the Leopard 1’s BR; most autocannons have more than enough to do so at even longer ranges.
M47s don’t have a ton of armour, but they have decent armour, and I can definitely say that I bounce around 1/4, maybe 1/3 shots at 8.0 (I uptier it alongside the Leo) because people aren’t bothering to aim right, and that definitely makes a difference you can feel. Much more than that, though, is the fact that if I face an SPAA I know that it needs to aim for specific spots to kill me, like the side, barrel, tracks, or maybe the cupola. With the Leopard 1, anything can kill you from the front as long as it has more than a .50 cal.
As for the mobility, it is a bit better than most of the contemporary vehicles at that BR, but not by a large enough margin to matter in most cases. Its armour is significantly more useless than the rest of the vehicles at that BR, as you say yourself everything lolpens so the gun doesn’t matter all that much (and isn’t that much better performing than the rest besides), the mobility is good but unremarkable, and in general it is entirely unsuited to the CQC maps common in War Thunder.
