What’s about the very similar AMX 30 (1972) and Type 74 (C) ?
Why did you compare Leopard 1 (BR 8) with tanks at BR 8.3 & 8.7?
I guess Leopard I is not the kind of tank german techtree players used to play, so they can’t manage weak armor.
2 Likes
I only always hear “germans are bad” but nobody explains why. What are they actually doing wrong? I assume they are just bad because the tanks at rank V are bad balanced. So without proper equipment it’s very difficult to perform well. And even if it is the players that have problems with handeling their tanks right. Why not accept the fact and adjust the BR so that the average player can handle it. I think its better to adjust the BR by how players are actually performing with it and not by what could be.
They are mainly inexperienced players to begin with. Here is what is most common:
-Terrible situational awareness
-Most abhorrent users of smoke grenades, often hindering their own team.
-Over-reliance on armor thickness, leading getting killed in open fields or other vulnerable areas.
-Lack of understanding of own and opposing weaknesses, especially obvious since German guns of that BR are some of the best to use.
This argument does not apply since German tanks have very good armor and guns, with slightly above average mobility. Experienced players should not have issues using them.
Ignoring the fact that lowering the BR also will see experienced players using it. Were you around when the Leo was at 7.3? It was terrible, that tank dominated lobbies easily. Lowering a BR because the average player is bad is unwise.
This used to be the case with two completely similar tanks. The M48A1 (US) and M48A2C (German) were effectively the same tank bar some cosmetic differences and a raised engine deck. However, due to poor statistical performance, the German version was one BR step lower than the US one. This was a poor balancing decision as tanks don’t have any difference that matters enough to alter their peformance. It was just because the players were bad with them. The same case, again, can be said about lower BR American aircraft. Most are lower than they should be.
2 Likes
Balancing based on player performance and not vehicle performance is a terrible, terrible idea, always has been, and always will be.
Its the exact thing that results in broken OP vehicles like the Su-11 at 7.0, the Wyvern at 4.3, the 2S38 which is still at 10.0 lol, the BMP-2M at 8.7, and the aforementioned Leopard 1 at 7.3, or the massive host of insanely strong US aircraft that all kept being dropped in BR
It also results in stupidly pathetic vehicles like the A6M5s being raised to worthlessness, the R2Y2s at 8.0 while having 7.0 performance, and that time a large group of highly skilled players physically tested this by taking a very average plane in its BR at the time (I think it was the first Italian G.91?) and spammed it so much that it skewed gaijins data to the point they raised its BR like one or two steps higher to the point it was completely and utterly worthless.
The Leopard 1 now sits at a BR similar to all the other NATO MBTs that were based on its design, like the AMX-30 and Type 74, plus others designed around the same time such as the M60A3 and Centurions. And most of those tanks are still 0.3 above the Leopard 1.
3 Likes
This incident in question was done by DEFYN and his group with the CL-13B Mk. 6 since they surmised not many people play at all. Through good play, they proved that Gaijin’s balance by statistic standard is inherently flawed as they tried to move that aircraft to 9.7.
Correct info is below.
Italian CL-13 mk.4
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warthunder/comments/pty5su/so_me_and_few_decent_players_saw_gaijin_say_that/
PS though idk how true it’s, since Italian planes get br increases without a help of any grops usually XD
makes me questioning why these problems not affecting other nations.
I mean I know myself the change is pretty hard from rank IV to rank V, I went broke on silver lions due to repair costs. Suddenly armor is no more. A different playstyle is requiered now. Hide behind hills look with commander goggles over the hilltop and quickly peak over if you can make a shot. But I still get flanked very often. And even if I shoot the enemy it takes on average 2 rounds to get a kill (I tried DM12 and DM13). I studied especialy russian tanks to know where to hit them.
Still I have no really clue what can I do better?
and thast why we cant have nice things.
I would strongly advise gajin in to working on skill based MM and BR system.
Ala Mechwarrior online.
Track metrics of players not of vehicels. And place them against appropriate players of same skill.
track how long and how acurate they track targets , time to kill. hHow many shoots are on the same spot and or around the same target area on what ranges they do it.
There is no gap, and win rate has NOTHING to do with how powerful individual tanks are.
I get that you want to prove German players have “skill issues”, but that’s not relevant.
YOU did, just now.
By citing ThunderSKILL [an anecdote] and winrate you claim it’s a skill issue.
So you clearly think it’s a skill issue or you would’ve deleted your post by now.
Balanced.* past tense.
lolno
This is not a competitive arcade shooter.
Unless you’re offering to fund the server infrastructure yourself, on your own, without assistance from Gaijin, as an optional feature… no.
It also just isn’t really possible. WT has a ton of different Brs with 8 different game modes. Any sort of SBMM would increase queue times by a ridiculous amount.
@VonMarder How would it work?
4 Likes
Because new players are most likely to start the game by playing either Germany, USA, or Russia, with Germany probably being the most common.
But of these nations, Germany is the only nation really where the playstyle flips on its head so drastically, most other nations the play style stays similar or curves more slowly so its easier to adapt.
With germany you completely flip playstyles in the span of one single BR bracket, going straight from slow, heavily armoured tanks that do well in standoffs and holding positions, to a light, fast, flanker and sniper tank that can’t take a hit. Its the complete opposite of anything Germany has up until that point other than maybe the Puma.
Of course people who have never had the time to get used to that playstyle would struggle. If you have played other nations before, especially nations where that sort of play style is common, you would have no issue. I myself found the Leopard 1 to be an excellent tank and extremely powerful, and I spaded it after it went to 8.0. but I am extremely used to that play style.
2 Likes
Track how long and how acurate the players keep on a targets , time to kill, how many shots needed. How many shoots are on the same spot on the same target and or around the same target area on what ranges they do it in certain vehicels. How fast they snap on a target that they have spotet.
MWO has a good system. As start.
Not two palyers will perform the same in the same vehicel.
But player skill stays the same.
What about air? And would that skill lever transfer over every BR, or just a range?
Plus, SBMM would not be fun, you are punished for doing better.
For each mode you would need to track speratly. So for Arcade, realstic, Simulator and the Ground Air and navy. Like the in the player card its also sperated.
As a rough outline and begining, yes it would need to be worked out in detail. As high tir withr adar mangment has diffrent requierments then prop tir where you dont evade missiles and you have guns on target. There you would need to count how many hits are on target and time to kill.
Each game mode and class of vehicles has its own requierments.
The br system like now is clearly being manipulated by the playerbase. The intention by gajin was good but it owuld need to be expended and worked over.
Gaijin relies too much on only player statistics, which are flawed. They should adjust for player skill when taking raw stats into account. For example, if a player with an average of 1.5 KD is getting 1.5 KD in a tank, then that tank is balanced.
They do. All less played nations tend to see higher BRs in general, Japan has their aircraft constantly moved up, America has theirs moved down, there’s a significant list. While I criticize #Germanmains the most, all nations have some form of issues brought about by who plays them.
You are a glorified light tank, so taking direct engagements is discouraged. Use your speed to find enemies on flanks and snipe where you can. Otherwise, you should support other tanks so you are not the one always focused on.
1 Like
Thats is completely false, few years ago the german M48 was moved to 7.3 because he faced stronger opponetns meanwhile the USA one faced outdated WW2 german vehicles thanks to the biased MM lock. Just remember this meme.
2 Likes
because BR 8.3-8.7 are the average enemies you facing if you play the leopard 1. I played the Leopard 1 for like 3 months now and I only once was the uptier with it.
It’s all good, only Leo 1 and the reserve kills, maybe it’s immediately in reserve, so that the game wasn’t boring for you…
1 million percent, German mains were so bad with the Leopard 1 it was downtiered to 7.3
its a 7.7 - 8.0 tank.
WW2 tanks used to see Leopard 1s it was never going to be balanced. Your issue is not with the Leo being 8.0 its the mass of premium tanks at the 9.0 and 8.7 bracket that are vastly superior to it.
Why is the Leo 1 8.0 when the Tam 2 is 8.7?
Premiums at these BR ranges have ruined any hope of playing a game at your BR of 8.0 or a downtier.
Lowering the Leo 1 to 7.7 will not fix this game issue.
5 Likes