I don’t really see the problem, every vehicle is balanced by performance regardless of similarities.
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yes, the FPS uses the Production (9.7) Type 16s hull, instead of the Prototype. Which gives it… still irrelevant armour since the P can’t be .50 cal’d anyway. With otherwise identical everything else.
Don’t think a 100mm of front armor is irrelevant, autocannons are a thing.
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There have always been good sniping maps, and there are still decent ones in game. Sands of Sinai, Fulda, Mozdok, Flanders, etc. We can probably both agree there needs to be more oppertunities for snipers, and less CBQ focused maps, but again, seperate issue.
You could maybe argue the Leopard isn’t super versatile, but that’s a trait it shares with most other 8.0 MBTs. The AMX-30 and OF-40 have similar kit (and thus, similar problems), the M60 and T-54s only have armor in downtiers, and togther with the Cent the mobility holds the back from any non-brawling playsyles, etc. They almost all fall flat compared to what they see in uptiers, so it’s a compression issue.
And high zoom does help a lot with sniping. Being more easily able to identify what you’re shooting at, make more accurate adjustments to fall of shot, hell, just being more easily able to spot movement at longer ranes, it all adds up. It’s not a huge difference, but it is noticable.
There have always been good sniping maps, and there are still decent ones in game. Sands of Sinai, Fulda, Mozdok, Flanders, etc. We can probably both agree there needs to be more oppertunities for snipers, and less CBQ focused maps, but again, seperate issue.
I never had any issue sniping on those maps with anything though, it’s a few hundred meters to the center of the map, you can eye ball that, and you don’t need speed to get in a sniping spot.
Either way I’m not saying it’s not a 8.0 tank or whatever, people just pretend it’s some godlike vehicle despite being mediocre in all aspects.
I can partially agree with that. It’s not goodlike, it’s just good in a role that’s less and less prevalent. It’s a fine 8.0 MBT, it’s just that every 8.0 MBT is kinda in a bad spot these days and would benefit a lot from further decompression.
A lot of the kickback to threads like this are people who remember just how obnoxious it was to deal with back at 7.3, when it got to feast on late WW2 vehicles and was 0.3 to 0.7 BR below many of it’s contemporaries for little justified reason. I remember becoming very upset back in the day when I realized that on top of it’s other advantages, it also outreloaded my M47 by a second despite having a bigger and generally much better gun.
So a lot of people fear that when threads like this crop up, Gaijin might see it and decided that it needs to go back to being 0.3 BR under it’s comtemporaries because of a loud subset of players who cannot adapt to a different playstyle and insist on taking the Leopard brawling.
The Leopard doesn’t need buffs, nor a BR reduction. It needs BR decompression and a return to more long range focused maps.
I don’t think the Leopard has ever been an issue, it’s always just been alone at 7.7 and 7.3 so you’d endlessly lose and your team of Tiger lls get rolled by cold war stuff endlessly, just a big divide between vehicles.
All the Leopard would do is use it’s mobility to get ahead and face the entire team alone because Tiger lls werent going to keep up obviously.
Really just seems like this anti-German mindset, when have you ever seen anyone complain about the OF-40? People just call it a decent vehicle, not some demon spawn.
Same issue with the Tiger, Ru251 etc, complete mediocrity but it’s German.
A problematically strong vehicle does not become less problematic just because it lacks a lineup. It may result in a low winrate, but the experience of being defeated not by better skill but by the use of an overly strong vehicle is not a pleasant one regardless/
And the Leopard wasn’t alone forever. They got the East German BMP and M48A2 C in 2019, and the Marder A1 later. This was a perfectly solid lineup, albiet lacking in CAS and SPAA (Although most lines lacked useful SPAA at this tier).
And I don’t know about you, but I’d prefer a team of King Tigers with a few Leopards than a team of Pershings with a few M47s. Britain was the real kingmaker of that tier back when the stabilized Cents were 6.7.
Again, if you’re using mobility just to charge into the map, you’re not using it appropriately. The Leopard is not a Hellcat, you aren’t supposed to just push the flanks until you get around the enemy team. The Leopards mobility is there to allow it to get into a strong sniping position while everyone else is still trundling into the map.
People didn’t complain about the OF-40 because it was always 7.7, and with an even weaker lineup than the German one. You had the OF-40, the 105mm sidegrade to the M47, the the R3 T106. That’s it. It was also far less common, meaning it’s overall impact on the game was lesser. 7.7 was also a less problematic BR, as 6.7 was one of the big MM brackets, and due to the way MM works, you could only see a handful of 7.7 vehicles in a full uptier. 7.3s, however, would be plentiful.
This is getting a bit off topic now, but IMO both richly deserved their uptiering. 5.7 Germany was always my braindead easy lineup to finish tasks on. Angle correctly, play at mid range, and position correctly, and you’d be unstoppable. A hulldown Tiger E was borderline unkillable, and still remains crazy resistant in coming fire. That mantlet will eat anything. 6.0 Germany has remained a solid lineup in my experience, especially due to the almost complete absense of 7.0 lineups for it to be uptiered against.
And the Ru251 was just a slightly worse Leopard that was at 6.7 for some ungodly reason. It’s arguable whether or not it deserves 7.0 or 7.3 (Don’t have it myself), but 6.7 was way too low for something that’s just straight better than most other light tanks at the tier.
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Most players made the same mistake by taking their heavy tanks out in a full uptier match, not saying Tiger 2 couldn’t hold its own at 7.7 but the rule of thumb is heavy tanks in an uptier lose its perks of having more armor than anything else and lack of fire power, but then there is nothing else to play in German 6.7 lol you have like three Tiger 2s and two Ferdinands
Right. One vehicle with a different team, vs. other enemies can be a night and day difference in performance, which should be reflected by BR.
BR == performance of the vehicle in the game
BR =/= performance of the vehicle on its own
Well, the M47 has a rather small turret compared to the Leopard 1, with enough space for a bathtub for the loader 😂
The M48 gets rid of that issue but it’s not like that Gaijin cared about how efficent a crew can operate a tank in RL 🙃
In general it’s true but when you go from heavily armored WW2 vehicles to post-war tanks with only 4 crews it’s a bit different.
A 122mm, 100mm or even a 90mm can easily take out a Tiger 1 with APHE easily but unless it’s something even more heavily armored than a Ferdi or Tiger II it’s probably going to use APDS and HEAT-FS.
Which ironically has a harder time killing these vehicles than later post-war tanks, due to having 5-6 crews.
The M47 and M48A1 both share the American 90mm 9.7 second reload, which is only so long because it was first used on the M26 Pershing and M36 Jackson, both of which have relatively cramped turrets. Despite the sizable turret size increases in the M47 and M48A1, they share this reload.
Meanwhile, the upgunned M47 105 in the Italian tree, and the Magachs that have 105mm L7s in M48 turrets in the Israeli tree, despite using larger, heavier ammo in the exact same turrets, have shorter reloads.
Was about to say the same, many germany players suffer because they don’t realize they need to change their playstyle from relying on really strong armour at that br.
Yeah, definitely not plenty of experience of getting lolpenned in a Tiger or one shot in a Tiger ll constantly.
When M48/BMP added the nation lock was already removed. DE US and GB can all team together.
I don’t have the info on that, either way the German version had a 40% winrate, and the American a 65% winrate, if you think that’s fair somehow?
The M48 was performing poor enough that it would get an even lower BR and people complained, so instead the Leopard 1 was lowered to bolster Germany’s 7.3 lineup.
At this point you still had Caernarvon, AML-90, Char 25, Centurions, Strvs at 6.7 and 7.0.
And in the same update as the Leopard going down to 7.3 and the issues of the M48 happening they said this:
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The best way to exemplify how wrong the leopard I going to 7.7 would be, and how wrong it was to send it to 7.3, is to remember that one of it’s counterpart is the Strv-103. A MBT that rivals dedicated missile carriers in term of being a one-trick.
Someone that claims that the leopard is somehow less capable in the context of WT than the Strv, you can safely disregard their argumentation as they are either disingenuous, or simply do not understand the game to a point where they only manage to make work egregiously OP vehicles.
One can only guess, but has nothing to do with “fairness”. TS is not great for information other than what a player uses (though no data on BR/lineup BR used or when it was being used, i.e. which patch), and has been sold to another, not had real update for 3 years now, and full of holes. For generalisations it is not useful.
However the opening of the MM was a major change which happened pre-Covid and is still there to this day. This I believe was before M48 or German BMP were added, though as you say cannot clarify.
(And I bet you haven’t touched certain vehicles mentioned since moving to 7.3 and now 7.7, so not sure how some perform now after the initial lapse on stabilisers being added and varying performance of AP shells).
One can only guess, but has nothing to do with “fairness”. TS is not great for information other than what a player uses
People always complain about TS, yet it’s pretty much always reflected the state of the game, any BR increase and decreases can be cross referenced with TS performance and they usually line up.
And it doesn’t exist in a vacuum, it’s a tool, if it shows an absurdly high performing vehicle, you can see that in game or vice versa, you don’t really see super powerful vehicles in game do poorly on TS or vice versa.
Either way I posted evidence of Gaijin directly confirming the difference between the M48s, being at the lower limit of efficiency and the lowering of the Leopard, whilst at the same time making MM less strict, which clearly indicates there were MM restrictions in place which were removed in response to the situation with the M48.
And I bet you haven’t touched certain vehicles mentioned since moving to 7.3 and now 7.7
Don’t see why I should, we’re talking discussing personal performance.
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