Wrong, it is better in the majority of maps that feature close to mid range fighting.
Identical. And after the APDS nerf, the HEAT is better anyway.
I’d rather be in the italian M47. At least that one won’t get instakilled by an SPAA.
Delusional
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AMX’s HEAT has lower velocity and can ricochet more often.
I don’t think nerfs really affected L7 APDS that much.
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The centurion is worse in most maps maps even the one in cities.
the amx 30’s heat does less damage, has a worse overpressure, is slower and even after the change the apds does have it uses.
Spaag can easily kill it on the sides anyways while have worse mobility and optics
sure buddy… you are acting like having 8x is like having a telescope it is not that hard buddy
clearely unusuable under 600m, btw you still have the wide x4 of the commander
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Maybe im wrong but some time ago someone posted both ammo stats via datamining and IIRC both haved exactly the same damage and overp. power.
they could have the same modifiers, but the dm 12 keeps having a larger he amount which would change the absolute values, we can see that quite on the overpressure in game.
Agreed on this, L7 APDS is still quite powerful. I consider it to even be pseudo-apfsds, its postpen is good enough.
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It didn’t, DM13/M392A2/L28A1(same shell different name) actually got more pen at all angles from that update, While nearly all APDS got nerfs to angled performance., So it was buffed rather than nerfed.
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its a fact that america and russia dominate at these brs germany is pretty mediocre not great not terrible
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The meaningful armour, in this case, is less an amount of armour capable of stopping main calibre HEATFS and APDS, and more the baseline level of armour required to stop autocannons frontally, which the Leopard 1 lacks. I can say with absolute certainty that even the ADPS on the XM800T, which I believe has only 66mm of penetration, can completely kill a Leopard from the front within at least 200 meters. That’s pretty much scraping the barrel in autocannon penetration around the Leopard 1’s BR; most autocannons have more than enough to do so at even longer ranges.
M47s don’t have a ton of armour, but they have decent armour, and I can definitely say that I bounce around 1/4, maybe 1/3 shots at 8.0 (I uptier it alongside the Leo) because people aren’t bothering to aim right, and that definitely makes a difference you can feel. Much more than that, though, is the fact that if I face an SPAA I know that it needs to aim for specific spots to kill me, like the side, barrel, tracks, or maybe the cupola. With the Leopard 1, anything can kill you from the front as long as it has more than a .50 cal.
As for the mobility, it is a bit better than most of the contemporary vehicles at that BR, but not by a large enough margin to matter in most cases. Its armour is significantly more useless than the rest of the vehicles at that BR, as you say yourself everything lolpens so the gun doesn’t matter all that much (and isn’t that much better performing than the rest besides), the mobility is good but unremarkable, and in general it is entirely unsuited to the CQC maps common in War Thunder.
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Yeah I always regarded L7 APDS to be pretty good, surely better than similar HEAT.
Some lower caliber APDS like 76mm ones are glorified APCRs and APDS from UK heavies are also troublesome.
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No one is taking an M47 over a Leopard 1.
Thats a huge reach
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At least in a T54 or M60, a fucking falcon or XM800T won’t completely destroy your team
i mean if your team gets destroyed by a XM800T thats on you and even then it still doesnt make either the m60 ot the t54 better than the leopard. They are worse tanks overall.
Of course italian M47 armed with the same gun and 7.7.
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So one fast rat tank flanking our entire team and then killing all of us before we even have time to stop and stabilize is our problem? Ever wonder why the Wiesel 1A4 (similar rat tank with the same gun) and the Gepard (same gun as many other TD SPAAs) have lower KDRs than similar vehicles in different countries?
You can easily kill it, use your heat.
First, even using the from the thunder skills the kd of the xm800t and the wisel are not that far off just by 0.5, and since the xm800t is a higher br it also sees far more thanks with less armor and people usually use it as a first spawn so the difference is not that high.
Second, the gepard have around the same kd as other spaag with the same guns even better than some , only the itpsv and the za35 do better, and thats because how much mobile they are, which also shows you how important mobility is.
Mistakes on the KDR stats, my information was a bit older. But let’s be honest, German lower top tier needs some more armored tanks, copy and pasted soviet tanks for east germany is fine
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which also shows you how important mobility is.
It’s a lot more important when you’re stabilised. Those vehicles are both all stabilised and all have autocannons. With the main gun of a tank, if you’re not stabilised then speed only helps in getting to good positions, and that only works if you have significantly better mobility than your enemy (not just somewhat better mobility, but significantly).
As it stands now, there is literally no reason that I can see to use the Leopard 1 instead of the Df 105 (which has better mobility, the same gun, a much faster reload, and equally useless armour), unless, I suppose, you prefer APDS over HEATFS, but it would be a pretty hard sell to play a worse tank for that.
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I’m not saying they are, though it’s not as big a reach as you might think; the insane turret traverse on it gives it very good responsiveness. I mentioned the M47 because it is a tank at a similar BR to the Leopard 1 that I have experience in, and that could be used to compare armours.
For the purposes of the post you’re responding to, imagine they’re two vehicles at the same BR with the only difference being armour. I mentioned it because it doesn’t have awesome armour, and will only ever bounce or block full calibre rounds at 8.0 if the enemy is inept, but the armour is still much more useful than the Leo’s because it protects it from autocannons. Therefor, it was useful and relevant to the point I was making when used as a comparison.
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The thing is that the leopard have significantly better mobility than many 8.0 such as centurions, m60s, t54s, so the mobility is quite important
there are reasons aside from the apds, you get a better heat on the leopard, you get a rangefinder, better optics, better depression, youre .50 cal proof, and even if the df 105 was better, it doesnt mean that it need to go down in br to just “sell” the tank, sure there are vehicles that are better than the leopards but there are still plenty of vehicles than are worse than it.
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