Yeah and if I want to play French auto-loader I play French auto-loader.
You’re kinda repeating yourself. Not really sure what that kind of statement has to do with the discussion.
It’s not a skill issue to say “This vehicle sucks because it’s only good in 25% of the matches”.
The Raketenjagdpanzer is also the best vehicle in the world when you get a few specific maps that allow you play from some hull down positions. That doesn’t really make the vehicle much useful though.
That’s why I don’t like the Leopard. It’s not a “oh I’m gonna play this vehicle now” vehicle.
It’s a “I should really play another vehicle on this map” kind of vehicle.
A vehicle can be on paper be way worse than another, but it doesn’t matter when 80% of the maps favour a specific playstyle where the other vehicle is better.
Same story with armor penetration. A gun that can kill 80% of vehicles 100% of the time is still better than a gun that kills 100% of vehicles 50% of the time.
Leopard I is unironically one of the best 8.0 MBTs in the game, I mean just take a look at M60s, T-54s and their copies.
In my opinion, only two 8.0 MBTs that are better than Leopard I are OF-40 and Vickers Mk.1.
I much prefer the APDS on the STB/Type 74 (C). They’re both very solid vehicles at 8.3. The Type 74 is better but not enough for it to go up, or the STB to go down in BR.
it’s relevant because these vehicle are able to do a lot of damage with what they are good at.
Mostly at being more aggresive or active than the Leopard.
They all have weak armor but they can dish out more damage.
When you’re flanking in a Leo 1 you’re not going to kill a vehicle every 4.0s, nor will you be able to accurately fire on the move.
A Maus can be played more aggressive than a Leopard. No one is sitting back and sniping with a Maus, because switching from a defensive position to acting aggressive would simply take too much time.
You need to contribute to your team and an aggresive vehicle is generally never bad because being offensive wins the game.
But apparently there are better options.
Played doesn’t mean effective. You take a vehicle with specific strenghts and put it into an enviroment where it can’t use them and it becomes underwhelming.
Yeah that’s why we keep complaining about it :)
The complaint is that the Vickers lacks HEAT-FS and the French don’t even have APDS, which means even less armor penetration. However →
They make up for that by having increased firepower with greater RoF or even a stabilizer.
This firepower increase is worth much more than what the Leopard offers as a whole.
Obviously but it’s the sum of all the parts that matter and the Leopard is simply not standing out compared to a lot of other vehicles.
The mobility of the Leopard is just nothing special compared to how many other fast vehicles can be encountered at 8.0.
mostly because German players go straight to it from the Tigers and expect it to play the same. It’s not a problem with the tank, it’s a problem with the players.
Oh geez, first the problem with the Tigers supposedly is that everyone gets into the Tigers too fast and now they go too fast from the Tigers into the Leopards?
Pretty sure people have spend a pretty fair amount of time in the game before they get the Leopard and there is a whole rank separating them, by what logic would anyone expect them to work the same and somehow not learn after a few games?
Leopard isn’t standing out when compared to Vickers Mk.1 or OF-40, but if you compare it to most other 8.0s it surely holds it’s ground pretty well.
Bottom line is, if vehicles like T-54s or M60s can stay at 8.0, Leo I sure as hell can as well.
Yes? That is the problem. A lot of new players flock to Germany because of it’s iconic tanks, the Tiger and Leopard being some of the most iconic ever. Ergo, lots of bad players playing them and a) not having lineups and/or b) just not being very good at the game
Not really… You need 6 Rank 4 vehicles before you can get the Leopard, and that could easily be the 2 Tiger IIs, 2 AAs, and 2 Panthers. Doubly as easy now that stuff foldered is cheaper (so you can get 1 Panther and 2 more half-price Panthers, essentially.
Yes? That is the problem. A lot of new players flock to Germany because of it’s iconic tanks, the Tiger and Leopard being some of the most iconic ever. Ergo, lots of bad players playing them and a) not having lineups and/or b) just not being very good at the game
Oh yes, something something history channel… yada yada Wittmann.
Not really… You need 6 Rank 4 vehicles before you can get the Leopard, and that could easily be the 2 Tiger IIs, 2 AAs, and 2 Panthers. Doubly as easy now that stuff foldered is cheaper (so you can get 1 Panther and 2 more half-price Panthers, essentially.
And somehow by this point these players do not understand the difference between a Tiger and a Leopard? And despite these people supposedly playing the game specifically for these vehicles, they have zero clue about what kind of tank it is and somehow think a cold war era Leopard 1 is identical to a 1940s heavy tank from WW2?
Leo is literally the gold standard of 8.0 tanks. Try the T54s or the AMX30 if you want bad 8.0 tanks.
The problem is still the 8.7 tanks beating up on everything below them even after the last attempt at ‘decompression’ by only a 1 BR shift. With tons of 8.7s and nearly no 7.7s, the 8.0s get upteired all the time.
In the OP, the very first justification they give is that:
This is the lead to his argument, when the armor of the Leopard is more or less irrelevant to it’s playstyle (Not to mention, it’s not substantibly worse than a lot of other MBTs around that BR). What does that demonstrate, if not a complete lack of understanding of the way a tank should be used based on prior experience with German tanks?
I think you seriously overestimate the average WT player’s knowledge of armor design and history. There are a lot of kids that play this game thanks to WT’s aggressive advertisements and sponsorships. Not to mention being a free to play game on Steam. And, of course, the most likely source for the average person’s tank knowledge will be History Channel and similar levels of documentaries, which focus almost entirely on WW2 for German armor, with nothing past that. Leopards never fought in any famous battles during the Cold War like the Patton and T-54, or the M1 and T-72.
That most of the European tank designers switched from armor first to mobility first during the 60s/70s is a fact reserved mostly for tank nerds, especially when the two largest tank producing nations largely stuck with armor over mobility.
Agreed. While no MBT can really rely on armor the way WWII tanks can, M60s, Centurions, T-54/55s and the like are far, far more survivable in downtiers and frequently deflect shots in CQB (something the Leo can’t dream of doing). You’ve gotta use the Leo exclusively as a sniper or flanker, using the good optics and above average mobility to your advantage. The Leo is fairly effective in this role but otherwise fairly limited unfortunately, especially with the trend of small maps lately.
So snipe and play very passively and you’ll do fine. Unfortunately the Leo is just not nearly as versatile as any other 8.0 MBT. And ignore the haters saying “Germany bad,” they know not of what they speak.