Leopard 1 is way too weak at 8.0

Machinery of War Discussion Ground Vehicle
61

In the OP, the very first justification they give is that:

This is the lead to his argument, when the armor of the Leopard is more or less irrelevant to it’s playstyle (Not to mention, it’s not substantibly worse than a lot of other MBTs around that BR). What does that demonstrate, if not a complete lack of understanding of the way a tank should be used based on prior experience with German tanks?

I think you seriously overestimate the average WT player’s knowledge of armor design and history. There are a lot of kids that play this game thanks to WT’s aggressive advertisements and sponsorships. Not to mention being a free to play game on Steam. And, of course, the most likely source for the average person’s tank knowledge will be History Channel and similar levels of documentaries, which focus almost entirely on WW2 for German armor, with nothing past that. Leopards never fought in any famous battles during the Cold War like the Patton and T-54, or the M1 and T-72.

That most of the European tank designers switched from armor first to mobility first during the 60s/70s is a fact reserved mostly for tank nerds, especially when the two largest tank producing nations largely stuck with armor over mobility.

62

Agreed. While no MBT can really rely on armor the way WWII tanks can, M60s, Centurions, T-54/55s and the like are far, far more survivable in downtiers and frequently deflect shots in CQB (something the Leo can’t dream of doing). You’ve gotta use the Leo exclusively as a sniper or flanker, using the good optics and above average mobility to your advantage. The Leo is fairly effective in this role but otherwise fairly limited unfortunately, especially with the trend of small maps lately.
So snipe and play very passively and you’ll do fine. Unfortunately the Leo is just not nearly as versatile as any other 8.0 MBT. And ignore the haters saying “Germany bad,” they know not of what they speak.

63

when the armor of the Leopard is more or less irrelevant to it’s playstyle

The armor is bad regardless, and a lot of things do get better armor.

I think you seriously overestimate the average WT player’s knowledge of armor design and history. There are a lot of kids that play this game thanks to WT’s aggressive advertisements and sponsorships

I’m saying that if these people supposedly are playing the game specifically to flock the Tiger and Leopard, one would expect them to know the most basic things about it.

If they don’t know the most basic thing, they also weren’t out here for those specific vehicles.

64

However, in cities, the leo has the advantage of turret rotation over most tanks around that BR. Thats HUGE, especially with the T54s having glacial rotation. You can engage targets from different directions and can react to tanks surprising you around corners way faster. Thats often the determining factor on who gets the first shot.

2 Likes
65

That’s pretty irrelevant when you can just turn your hull, especially since the M60 has the exact same traverse, the Vickers and AMX-30 have better, and the Centurions and OF-40 only lack 4deg/s. The Leo’s turret traverse is only significantly better than the T-54s, which of course have excellent APHE that makes them exceptional at first-shot kills. Now many 8.0 MBTs are highly resistant to 100mm APHE, requiring a decent amount of precision aiming to penetrate. But the Leo is not one of those MBTs.
And with 3/4 crew in a line it’s got lower 1st shot survivability than the M60 or AMX which are much more difficult to crew knock out with a single shot.

66

The armor is just enough to be useful, while not good enough to be counteracted by other features so as to be balanced.

What I mean by this is that there is enough armor to deal with low penetration rounds. Autocannons generally cannot pen it frontally, even 35mm APDS from the Gepard equivalents can’t go through the UFP. Additionally, American 90mm M82 (Still relatively common in downtiers) will bounce off the UFP at moderate angles. This puts it solidly ahead of the Vickers Mk 1 and 3, and about on par with the AMX-30.

It won’t stop high pen rounds, but that’s true for just about every MBT outside the T-54s and arguably the M60. Most tanks at this BR use APDS and/or HEAT, which punches though a Leopard just as easily as it does a Centurion, STB, OF-40 or AMX-30. I’d argue the Leo is a slightly tankier target here, as that turret loves to shatter APDS in my experience.

Meanwhile, the two MBTs that have definitely better armor pay for it with worse mobility (Both), worse rounds and reload (T-54s), worse turret rotation (T-54s), or a larger profile (M60).

Which is all somewhat irrelevant, as the armor should never factor into things if you’re playing the Leopard as it is intended to be played, as a mobile flanker/sniper. Complaining about the armor on the Leopard is a bit like complaining about the armor of the Hellcat, if you’ve put yourself into a position where you you’re relying on it, you’ve already messed up. And it’s in this role that it’s truely useful advantages, the top speed, the great reactive mobility, the rangefinder, the high zoom, come into their own and make the Leopard stand out.

And I’m saying that most inexperienced players are out to play the Tiger, and not the Tiger as the historical vehicles with all it’s relative strengths and weaknesses, but the Tiger they remember from the HIstory Channel, the unstoppable heavy tank that could duel 5 Shermans at a time and win. I’d wager most of these type of player have never even heard of the Leopard, let alone know what it was designed to do.

2 Likes
67

Just don’t play leo1 and you will be happy to grind with other things.
or even better, buy a leoa1a1a1 or premium tam2 and skip the annoying 8.0 BR.
It’s simply no fun to play tanks with no stabilizer versus tanks that do in all those stupid CQB maps

68

So you are telling me that unless I can’t buy a premium I have wasted 300h grinding German tech tree?

69

Your trying to fit a square peg in a round hole if your complaining about the armour for a buff in br. Also the example you gave is a problem for everyone the same br and even higher. If in large open maps your mobility is superior to most your peers and gives you the best opportunity to cross the map safely.

2 Likes
70

Not really since I face tanks with similar mobility so that is of no use, since you can probably see the outcome

71

Not really since If I face anti airs they can pen me so armor aint that good to be useful

72

Just because others can do it to doesn’t change anything. Centurions, t55, conqueror, pattons etc can’t cross open ground as easily as you to name a few. Leo 1 is t your play style, not everything will be jus play through it and move on.

73

What’s next you gonna claim the Tiger II is too slow? look, kid, Armor isn’t everything, armor only became a focus later on however during the period of West and East Germany it was fire and run. So use your equipment as such, engage a target, and leave the area do not stay there. Rinse and repeat and eventually you’ll get the hang of it other wise good luck.

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Kinda hard to do in CQC maps

75

Learn, adapt, and deal with it. Just like the rest of us.

76

Bro probably plays russia

77

Japan. For almost 7 years.

78

Players forgot how it was played - it got buffed for a short bit - now it is back in how it was originally played.

1 Like
79

Play BMP, df105, and other vehicles that are more fun or even Maus if you have one.
Or just play the leo1 in m41 style, just don’t play it as an MBT for close frontal combat
Germany just doesn’t have any traditional armored vehicles after post-war until leo2
So I’m just offering options, you can adapt to new playing styles for post-war vehicles in Germany, or wallet-up for premiums to speed the grinding, or just grind in pain

80

The Leopard is about as survivable against SPAAs frontally as most other MBTs at the BR. 35mm APDS can’t get through the UFP even at point blank range, and the turret’s volumetric protection will eat some of the shots into there. And it’s entirely immune to 35mm APHE. That’s about on par with tanks like the Cent, AMX-30, STB and OF-40. It’s only lesser than the M60 and T-54 (Although the M60 can be killed through the turret ring, which isn’t a hard shot), and as stated above, those two tanks pay heavily for their armor.

1 Like