Last stand of Air Realistic Battles

[Ckasaron]

@FeetPics

Except in practice, me having fun comes directly at the cost of you having fun. This is why most EC lobbies with active players will eventually turn pretty one sided once someone gets a PvP advantage. This doesn’t apply to just top tier either; this is also prevalent in prop tier games.

This idea that EC is actually gentlemanly 1v1s in isolation or that attackers / bombers don’t get farmed by PvP players is mostly a fantasy. The most common outcome following a merge in Sim EC is either winning very quickly or whoever gets third partied first loses.

And what happens once you are not having fun? You leave the game to find a new one that is hopefully more devoid of PvP players.

FYI when I made my reply on this part I was not talking about EC at all, unlike the other two parts of mine you replied to. I was more referring to how CommunistBalls was screeching about how attackers and bombers are “skilless” and therefore not worth the regular Air RB game mode doing anything with.

What I was referring to here was how my proposal to set up Air RB’s win conditions such that doing the “typical” PvP dogfight no longer deprives attackers and bombers of the opportunity to do their jobs to bleed the other half of the ticket bar, and vice versa. Nonfighters now have breathing room to where snail would be able to add more interesting and skill-requiring objectives for each to kill now that input from one or both would be required to win nearly every Air RB match. Even the most “toxic” of fighter mains would struggle to argue against such an idea, because after all, do they not hate the likes of “bomber rushes” and “attacker rushes” of years past? Making nonfighters worth a damn does not mean going back to that crap…

[Ckasaron]

@FeetPics

EC has not potential in Gaijins free to play model because being able to cherry-pick vastly favorable circumstances causes people to exploit the economy. We see this every single time there is an aircraft event in sim and it’s just players rocket bombing airfields and trying to force PvE-only lobbies.

So the problem is the lobby system and not EC’s actual mission structure, gotcha.

@FeetPics

Many of these people have not played EC or only fondly remember PvE lobbies with only fighter opposition provided by bots. Any of the old Napalmratte RB EC videos will highlight how dead the game mode was at the time.

I personally have played most of the EC test events that did occur for RB before the lobby system was even introduced in Sim. I especially enjoyed the Markerless RB one.

Frankly though, the fact that the game doesn’t have mission types set up to where there is a dogfight phase followed by a “cleanup phase” is the root cause behind nonfighters being worthless. In real battles there was still an overarching job to do most of the time once the enemy air power was taken care of - in War Thunder taking care of enemy airpower is the only relevant job.

[FeetPics]

@Ckasaron

FYI when I made my reply on this part I was not talking about EC at all, unlike the other two parts of mine you replied to. I was more referring to how CommunistBalls was screeching about how attackers and bombers are “skilless” and therefore not worth the regular Air RB game mode doing anything with.

Bombing in the game is skill-less. You fly at a marked target on the ground and press a button for perfect bombing accuracy.

Ground attacking in RB is slightly more involved with having to place the cursor on a target and maybe hit it in the correct spot.

The whole entire skilled portion of it, if you want to call it that, is how they interact with other players.

@Ckasaron

What I was referring to here was how my proposal to set up Air RB’s win conditions such that doing the “typical” PvP dogfight no longer deprives attackers and bombers of the opportunity to do their jobs to bleed the other half of the ticket bar, and vice versa. Nonfighters now have breathing room to where snail would be able to add more interesting and skill-requiring objectives for each to kill now that input from one or both would be required to win nearly every Air RB match. Even the most “toxic” of fighter mains would struggle to argue against such an idea, because after all, do they not hate the likes of “bomber rushes” and “attacker rushes” of years past? Making nonfighters worth a damn does not mean going back to that crap…

So this just means that there is a free-RP farming phase once all of the players are killed and everyone that is left over is held basically forced to click on static ground targets. This also means the entire rewards system has to compensate for it as well.

@Ckasaron

So the problem is the lobby system and not EC’s actual mission structure, gotcha.

The lobby system is an integral part of EC. If there is no lobby system then games would just be empty as soon as one side gains PvP advantage.

@Ckasaron

Frankly though, the fact that the game doesn’t have mission types set up to where there is a dogfight phase followed by a “cleanup phase” is the root cause behind nonfighters being worthless. In real battles there was still an overarching job to do most of the time once the enemy air power was taken care of - in War Thunder taking care of enemy airpower is the only relevant job.

Because the ground objectives in the game are not interactive. They are either RP pinatas, bullet sponges that you cannot kill or catch up to, or they blow you out of the sky with arbitrary hit-scan AA. The game can’t even accurately path them or render them accurately on maps that have been around for years.

[MotorolaCRO]

@Real_K_Soze

I still miss any valid point which would make a multi-spawn layout of Air RB a smart idea. Air RB is a PvPvE mode with focus on PvP and basically a contest of aircraft choices and understanding of game mechanics.

More freedom of choice within the match, more things to do/shoot at/guard, more possible strategy options as match isn’t reduced to 2v2 in the first two minutes, etc.
No matter what you do, ARB is hard capped by single spawn limitation.

Talking about PvP games/modes, it’s quite obvious that respawning is bread and butter of most games, as otherwise you’d end up with mostly boring, bland, 1d gameplay.

@Real_K_Soze

Referring to poll numbers is irrelevant as the ability to click on a “Yes” or “No” does not imply that these players would have an understanding of how this game mode works.

Just showing how my request for multi spawn didn’t come out of thin air, as it’s obviously on the minds of many players.

@Real_K_Soze

If they are mindless grinders it seems logical that they want multiple spawns to rush to bases - it doesn’t matter if they use a Mach 2 F-4S or a Ju 288.

When I was flying planes for the purpose of A2A I was often left with nothing to shoot at, as the enemy team simply disappeared in the first two minutes of the game, which forced me to engage AI targets or look for that last guy who is probably either afk or hiding for some reason.

Your team winning the opening engagement and ending up in a 10v2 fight for scraps isn’t fun to many, which is something that would be solved with multi spawn system. Games getting decided by the opening engagement is far from perfect and makes games last as long as that first engagement is lasting, thus resulting in hilariously quick games.

@Real_K_Soze

• The popularity of CAS aircraft in wt is based on the different ways gaijin implemented aircraft and tanks which makes them in Ground RB way superior (except a few BR ranges) to players in ground vehicles.

As I said, CAS being popular in GRB is amplified by the lack of things to do in ARB.
The fact you need to spawn a tank first and do decent in it before even spawning a plane is holding off many people.

@Real_K_Soze

The current layout or Air RB with ground units in a straight line allows a toddler to participate - but there is little to zero point in using them in Air RB. Why? Because you play a vehicle based shooter.

You’d still play a vehicle based shooter but with added complexity due to properly implemented CAS objectives that would impact fighters as well.

ARB has become a TDM and that’s unacceptable.

@Real_K_Soze

as long as Air RB is a plain shooter all newer maps are engagement optimized.

Considering ground targets and bases exist it proves that ARB isn’t a plain shooter by design, rather an incredibly unoptimized and archaic design made for the game’s needs a decade ago.

@Real_K_Soze

The idea of dynamic targets is not new, we had this in the past. But the current player material is simply not smart enough to use tactics or strategy - and has zero patience.

I doubt you’ll even need to have average intelligence levels to figure out how this new mode would be played. Current player material only looks to be not smart enough to use tactics or strategy while being without any patience because ARB itself forces that behavior onto players.

The higher you go, the more ARB becomes a mode without any strategy or tactics because the vehicles simply aren’t compatible with the design of the mode anymore.

@Real_K_Soze

So you wont change anything as long as lobbies are filled with masses of players on selfish grinding tours in order to research aircraft their can’t handle

The selfish grinding tours look selfish because ARB made ground pounding be a selfish playstyle. You see how everything stems to the game mode being utter trash that simply doesn’t work anymore ?

@Real_K_Soze

1. Everything in this mode is following a clear strategy to reduce entry barriers for rookies (which are clearly their target customers) - and this whole thread is increasing the complexity for these players.

You’re speaking from the corporate PoV, I’m not.

[Ckasaron]

@FeetPics

Bombing in the game is skill-less. You fly at a marked target on the ground and press a button for perfect bombing accuracy.

So then, how would you make it “skilled” (enough) to then allow for making their objective important to winning every round?

The way I see it, there is currently no practical room to improve bomber gameplay due precisely to Fighter TDM being able to end rounds without input from bombers. Because bombers are already irrelevant, snail has no reason to give them anything else, thus they remain irrelevant.

@FeetPics

Ground attacking in RB is slightly more involved with having to place the cursor on a target and maybe hit it in the correct spot.

Same as above with bombers. Arguably attackers are in a worse spot than bombers thanks to repeated ordinance nerfs to service tank mains complaining about CAS, shared spotting from the AI attackers meaning they usually can’t hide, and the nature of ground attack meaning you’re usually always low and slow.

@FeetPics

So this just means that there is a free-RP farming phase once all of the players are killed and everyone that is left over is held basically forced to click on static ground targets.

You aren’t forced to unless you are literally the last person alive. If being asked to finish the rest of the real objective of the engagement is such an insult, you could always land at the nearest runway and J out to hangar. If you’re the last person left alive once in a blue moon, is it really such a “problem” to clean up the map once in a while?

@FeetPics

Because the ground objectives in the game are not interactive. They are either RP pinatas, bullet sponges that you cannot kill or catch up to, or they blow you out of the sky with arbitrary hit-scan AA. The game can’t even accurately path them or render them accurately on maps that have been around for years.

So then what, are we supposed to just throw up our hands and say the mode is unfixable? If the root of the game mode doesn’t get expanded to allow attackers and bombers to matter, there will never be the slightest incentive to give attackers and bombers more thoughtful gameplay.

I agree with you that current attacker and bomber gameplay is rather uninspired.

What I do not agree with is using that opinion as an excuse to leave them that way.

[Real_K_Soze]

Imho this exchange is stuck in an infinite loop - as our understanding of the game mode, game design and player behaviour / motivations is totally different.

As a final message in this matter:

• Air RB is not limited by poor map design, stale game play or poor overall design - Air RB is shaped by the quality and expectations of the overwhelming majority of their paying customers.

• The main challenges of Air RB are rooted in the success of Ground RB, the mindset and motivations of newer players, their willingness to learn and invest time AND money - and that long-term players are way too few to be important regarding income/earnings for gaijin.

• I tried my best to show you and the OP that currently just long-term players would benefit from most of the proposed changes. The rookie player just follows the incentives by gaijin which are easy to identify - just look at SL & RP gains for extremely simple tasks like base bombing with a premium aircraft.

• I support any reasonable suggestion regarding an increase of “playability”, immersion or general game play. But it is obvious that gaijin has modified the game and tailored it to facilitate players looking for instant action in a shooter or easy grinding opportunities - that’s why the game play quality is declining from the perspective of long term players.

• Therefore anything which increases difficulties for those players is not welcomed by newer players or gaijin. So if you claim to be worried about non-fighter aircraft and their role in Air RB it makes zero sense to reject the idea that these new / fresh / rookie players are paying this game - maybe not in amount spend per player, but by their sheer numbers.

• You might agree or not, but as soon as the game gets more complex and the needs of these rookies are not considered, gaijin might think about a few cosmetic changes, but they won’t risk to lose or reduce the income stream these players create for gaijin. So any request for a change should contain also a proposal how the needs of those players can be covered.

• Spawns: The only reason to offer multiple plane choices would be the possibility to swap planes after landing and repairing like from a fighter in a bomber whilst keeping the one match - one life approach. Importing additional problems to Air RB with this multiple spawn based on multiple deaths is just creating more issues.

• Objectives: Your points regarding objectives simply miss the point that in almost all shooters mission objectives are just there to support player interactions. That’s why those objectives (and air markers) are marked on the map / in your view.

In any case: Have a good one!

[themadseventeen]

So a rookie can buy an F-4S with a PD radar, multiple secondary weapons, RWR, countermeasures and more but can’t handle bases not being in the same spot same every match?

Can’t tell if you insulting the intelligence of “rookie” players or just haven’t thought this through.

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@Real_K_Soze

their paying customers.

wrong,… players that answers gaijin’s surveys are not all paying customers,…

@Real_K_Soze

their willingness to learn and invest time AND money

Learn curve of players today stops at 30% of the full process
invest time - yes as any game with similar economy/research systems
Money - still not necessary, if you invest enough time, there is no money to invest.

@Real_K_Soze

and that long-term players are way too few to be important regarding income/earnings for gaijin.

what are you considering long-term players to be?
2 years old?
5 years old?
since game was released (out of BETA)?
since game was accessible (BETA)?
since game was early access (Closed BETA/Alpha)?

@Real_K_Soze

The rookie player just follows the incentives by gaijin which are easy to identify - just look at SL & RP gains for extremely simple tasks like base bombing with a premium aircraft.

Learn curve stopped at 30% remember?
players that were really into the process of learn how to play would be making at least 80% of the learning curve within 2 weeks.

@Real_K_Soze

gaijin has modified the game and tailored it to facilitate players looking for instant action in a shooter

That is true , no time for team strategies, no time for placement,…
the reason is the shortenned maps with now airspawn to allow player to scatter a bit,… but with the same low-minded strategy of rushing mid-maps guns and missiles blazing

but all of this followed the different surveys results that gaijin made (or at least seemingly, since we can’t verify the results of those surveys)

@Real_K_Soze

that’s why the game play quality is declining from the perspective of long term players.

@Real_K_Soze

So any request for a change should contain also a proposal how the needs of those players can be covered.

i have the answer,… make them a full force tutorial (when entering the game with props, and then entering jets era),… instead of the joke of tutorial they get today,…
make them learn what they don’t know,… so we can increase the difficulty

@Real_K_Soze

Spawns: The only reason to offer multiple plane choices would be the possibility to swap planes after landing and repairing like from a fighter in a bomber whilst keeping the one match - one life approach.

that’s a new proposition i’ve not heard yet.

could be interesting, but also brings problems on it’s own,…
how to consider god-mode series of reward, if we all can switch from F-15E to P-26A35 mid game?

how to consider rewards/economy?

how to consider win conditions (since you can be like the last guy alive, then have a turkey shoot of 10 A-6’s/A-4’s/A-10’s going for ground pounding mid game)?

how to consider the lost of information in RB? like you can see the feed to know what aircraft is played by the last guy, and base your strategy based on those information in late-game ← this would disappear.

@Real_K_Soze

Objectives: Your points regarding objectives simply miss the point that in almost all shooters mission objectives are just there to support player interactions. That’s why those objectives (and air markers) are marked on the map / in your view.

I do think your wrong on this one,…

Because even destroying all ground units today does not gives you a win condition.
I’ve trialed it in custom high tier battle(setting BR13.7 as mininum BR for the battle), on Falkland map:
destroying all ground units
2 destroyers and Forrestal Carrier
→ still not considered a win,…
had to bomb 5/7 bases after destroying all ground units

[Cpt_Bel_V]

@themadseventeen

So a rookie can buy an F-4S with a PD radar, multiple secondary weapons, RWR, countermeasures and more but can’t handle bases not being in the same spot same every match?

they can’t handle their weaponnary yet,… i’ve seen many new premium players at high tier, they’re all clueless about launch enveloppe and windows of AIM-9’s for exemple,…
(F-5C AIM-9E is probably the most ditched missile of the game, because rookie players have no clue on how to launch them properly)

i thought gaijin would have been making better tutorials for them,… but no.
they have made good/ok tier tutorials for tanks
but they kept the worse aircraft tutorial of any game i’ve ever played,… (even the BF-3 campaign mission is better explainned than tutorials in WT)

@themadseventeen

Can’t tell if you insulting the intelligence of “rookie” players or just haven’t thought this through.

those rookie ain’t stupid, but nothing are explainned to them.
we have to consider that the part of players coming to the game today are not aircrafts enjoyers (unlike the 2013-2014 period), so they have to learn most things that veteran players knows instinctively.

and Gaijin doesn’t provide that.

[themadseventeen]

@Cpt_Bel_V

they can’t handle their weaponnary yet,… i’ve seen many new premium players at high tier, they’re all clueless about launch enveloppe and windows of AIM-9’s for exemple,…
(F-5C AIM-9E is probably the most ditched missile of the game, because rookie players have no clue on how to launch them properly)

Exactly. And yet Gaijin pretends all is well. A slighlty more complex mode is a much less of a problem than PD radars for example.

[Real_K_Soze]

@themadseventeen

intelligence

It is not about intelligence - its about convenience and willingness to adapt.

Air RB became Air AB+ as gaijin offered what players demanded (=easy low skill grinding tool with a strong shooter component and almost instant action) and the players are happy to spend money and let themselves get steered by gaijin’s reward structure.

So its not about bases not being at the same spot - its about the necessary efforts to fulfil own goals whilst playing the game. And the goals of the paying majority defines the design of Air RB game play.

If you look at your demands in post #1: A large chunk is about more demanding maps, better map design, giving all plane classes a game impact, reward structures etc.

If you think this through you might acknowledge that some of these goals contradict each other and others require a totally different reward structure. Why? Because the average player is just fixated on his grinding adventure and plays that what gaijin makes attractive with their current reward structure.

[Spil1tia-psn]

@Ckasaron

So then, how would you make it “skilled” (enough) to then allow for making their objective important to winning every round?

ur so close man put 1 and 1 together

[Ckasaron]

You aren’t the person I replied to, but will you give the answer to my question?

[Spil1tia-psn]

yeah so basically you cant
bombers are an inherently skillless class and there is nothing that can be done to ever fix that.

[Ckasaron]

@Spil1tia-psn

yeah so basically you cant

I seriously doubt that.

@Spil1tia-psn

bombers are an inherently skillless class and there is nothing that can be done to ever fix that.

Even if they are currently rather simple, that doesn’t mean they don’t deserve to actually matter.

They seem more stuck in a nasty positive feedback loop than truly hopeless. I suspect only upending the mode win conditions can even begin to change things.

This would require the potentially controversial idea of matches continuing after the last enemy player dies. If bombers (and also attackers) are inherently PvE classes, then the mere ability for PvP alone to win games means neither can ever be relevant so long as win conditions remain that way. I also think for simple gameplay reasons, having PvE alone be able to win games isn’t good either, nor realistic.

But would fighter mains accept that hard fact that some of the really vocal ones among them put the mode in its current state and adapt, or would they go ballistic and shout down any attempt at reform because it disrupts their current hegemony (and then go right back to complaining how boring the mode is soon after)?

Nearly all real aerial engagements took place for one of the following reasons:

1. Clearing the way for friendly bombers/attackers
2. Preventing enemy air forces from doing 1)
3. Escorting friendly bombers/attackers as they do their intended job(s)
4. Shooting down enemy bombers/attackers

Bombers and Attackers quite literally ARE the mode’s missing flavor.

[Spil1tia-psn]

@Ckasaron

I seriously doubt that.

bomber gameplay comes down to picking a target pointing waiting for 5 minutes and then pressing the spacebar. there is just no way to make this skill based its like trying to make cookie clicker or a slot machine skill based. the only skilled part of bombers is aiming the turrets but bomber players are lazy so they refuse to learn how to and instead endlessly complain about how the ai gunners dont just play the game for them.

@Ckasaron

Nearly all real aerial engagements took place for one of the following reasons:

all real aerial engagements also took place with real pilots with loads of training and preparation as well as actual stakes of it being an actual war, the fundamental flaw with trying to create realistic gameplay through realistic scenarios is that warthunder players are not real pilots. the only way to make them care about bombers is to allow bombers to actually win games and making a class that requires zero skill capable of winning games is an utterly moronic idea for a multiplayer pvp focused game.

[Ckasaron]

@Spil1tia-psn

the only way to make them care about bombers is to allow bombers to actually win games and making a class that requires zero skill capable of winning games is an utterly moronic idea for a multiplayer pvp focused game.

It ain’t moronic, IMHO. The game isn’t going to remove all nonfighters just because folk like yourself think they’re “unredeemably skilless.”

I have long thought that since each of the camps within the Air RB playerbase thinks their favorite class should be “most important,” that the only way to truly end the moronic debate on that topic is to make none of them able to win games on their own anymore.

Hence where my idea of altering the ticket values drained from various sources stems from - I’m rather sick of the endless pissing wars and dick-measuring contests over who should be “best.” Axe all the autowin bleeds, adjust numbers of targets for each of the three objectives and/or the ticket value per existing targets to where each of the three objectives (A2A, CAS, and Bombing) each bleed 50% of the ticket bar at most.

• Ticket losses from aircraft destruction would increase substantially. The total value of all players and AI planes would add up to 50% of the bar.
• Either halve the number of ground units or halve their current ticket value and leave numbers as-is, so killing all ground units adds up to 50% of the bar.
• Disable bombing point respawning and dramatically increase the number of bombing targets, the total ticket value again equaling 50% of the ticket bar.
• Extend match times to 1h like they used to, and return the extra vehicle spawns 20min in to all maps, which would be worth 50% of the ticket bar as a failsafe to end hanging games with.

Then, every single game of Air RB would generally demand the current TDM and then also doing the actual objective after air superiority has been secured. Diehard fighter mains still get to have their fun they enjoy - a good bout against enemy fighters. Bomber and attacker users also get to have their fun even after the TDM has concluded. IDGAF what snail would do to Air RB rewards because of such a setup, since if the actual gameplay isn’t particularly fun why does grinding even matter anymore?

I’m almost certain WT will eventually trend in this direction, because while the majority of fighters, especially props, have been added already, there are dozens upon dozens of bombers the game has yet to add. Moreso still if we’re talking funny variants of existing bombers. Kinda like how snail upended HE shell mechanics to create reason to add all the derp artillery pieces in tank trees.

TLDR - the game has the solutions to almost all of its problems already. Changing ticket numbers cannot possibly be that hard, can it?

[themadseventeen]

@Ckasaron

Nearly all real aerial engagements took place for one of the following reasons:

1. Clearing the way for friendly bombers/attackers
2. Preventing enemy air forces from doing 1)
3. Escorting friendly bombers/attackers as they do their intended job(s)
4. Shooting down enemy bombers/attackers

Bombers and Attackers quite literally ARE the mode’s missing flavor.

This is the thing most people miss. And it would work so beautifully in game.

I agree with most of what you said except I would have a respawn system (not sure what kind) so that there would be no state where one team is left without players (of course if they all decide to leave that’s a different thing).

Some kind of pushing spawns back into more defended territories if the team is loosing. I am not sure but I don’t think it would disrupt fighter gameplay.

I do think it’s kind of best of both worlds. Bombers and strike aircraft still bomb stuff. Now they just might need to employ some kind of guided weapon on high tiers to destroy AA units, radars and such. Not that it matters much to them what they are destroying.

Fighters still fights fighters. Fighters can still try to farm strike and bombers. Only difference now would be since bombing is important players are incentivized to protect their bombers.

And I know people always hear “protecting bombers” and go “I don’t want to crawl next to a bomber”. Here’s an idea. Go in front and kill enemy interceptors. This way not only did you protect your bombers but you did what you wanted to do, which is do figther-fighter combat.

Also respawning might help your team shift their playstyle to what is more needed in that moment. For example in the ending phases in a match where you are going to win you would be pushing into more guarded airspace. There you would need A2G capability to destroy SAM sites, AA guns, and other defenses guarding the final objectives for example.

This is at least my idea for an ARB rework in a nutshell. I am not trying to push it on anyone.

At least I am glad most people agree that something needs to be done about the few things I wrote about in the OP.

[Ckasaron]

While I like your ideas, I do wonder - would matches still automatically end via continuous ticket bleed if the enemy team had no remaining players?

Because that in my eyes is the core problem - bombers and attackers are not PvP aircraft. Thus if there is any way whatsoever for matches to end via just PvP, any and all changes meant to benefit bombers and attackers will always fall short of what they intend. The fighter win condition is too smothering.

What I suggested in other replies:

• Ticket losses from aircraft destruction would increase substantially. The total value of all players and AI planes would add up to 50% of the bar.
• Either halve the number of ground units or halve their current ticket value and leave numbers as-is, so killing all ground units adds up to 50% of the bar.
• Disable bombing point respawning and dramatically increase the number of bombing targets, the total ticket value again equaling 50% of the ticket bar.
• Extend match times to 1h like they used to, and return the extra vehicle spawns 20min in to all maps, which would be worth 50% of the ticket bar as a failsafe to end hanging games with.

[themadseventeen]

@Ckasaron

would matches still automatically end via continuous ticket bleed if the enemy team had no remaining players?

I mean yeah. If everyone on one team leaves they lose.

@Ckasaron

The fighter win condition is too smothering.

I am for removing the kill win condition personally. Kills would be only a means of bringing your forces closer to the real objective.

I just know this is very controversial so I didn’t say anything about it. I am willing to meet the fighter mafia half way or whatever but that would be my ideal mode.