KH-38 needs to be nerfed or removed. GRB is unplayable

[MotorolaCRO]

@dedale_stargate

Either you balance the game with weaponries of similar capabilities and a sense of balance between different components : IE CAS can attack tanks and SPAA but SPAA would actually be capable of defending against the air threat decently.

CAS craps on AAs in plenty of tiers l, especially higher up. I doubt we’ll ever get balanced CAS.

[Fanta_3412]

@AlvisWisla

AGM-65s

Is this the AGM-65 ur talking about?

[dedale_stargate]

Agreed, imo because of the spawn cost. The x5 difference between a plane and a tank spawn is what sets the idea in people’s mind that the plane should have an advantage. Things would be so easier if the maps were bigger (more difficult to find a tank), and if you could spawn anything first. CAS wouldn’t be unchecked, because CAP would be first spawnable as well. Heck if the map is large enough and you really want to go full mixed game mode you can throw in modern ships and/or large SAM sites whenever they come in, with an Air RB sized map.

Custom games prove this is possible, but i doubt the servers would like it. 64x64 (any vehicle type and the ability to reswpawn at any point) on a 120x120km map could be somewhat fun imo

[Thodin]

This could also help to balance. Most western vehicles have means to reduce thermal and radar profiles. IFV, MBTs, trucks, MRAPs they all have these kits making them alot less visible on thermal viewers and ground radars.

[TheArcticFoxxo]

@dedale_stargate

You either miss the point entirely or are trying to deflect from the core issue : KH38

Never once had I done either. You’re the one that brought up asymmetric capability.

@dedale_stargate

My point is, the doctrine argument is bad.

What other argument is there to be when the entirety of a nation’s military capability is defined by doctrine? Would you rather a nonexistent equal be added? The only argument to be had is to either remove the missile from platforms, or give a counter to it.
Seeing as Western doctrine strayed from highly capable SPAA to mobile arrays for longer ranged interception, there isn’t a ground counter… And unless you want your F-16 with AGM-145s, you aren’t getting an equal air to ground system.
So… What does that leave you with? Maybe entirely denying the enemy an aircraft?

@dedale_stargate

Either you balance the game with weaponries of similar capabilities and a sense of balance between different components : IE CAS can attack tanks and SPAA but SPAA would actually be capable of defending against the air threat decently. This currently isn’t the case because of the likes of KH38 and to a lesser extent AASM. The disparity between SPAAs is also laughable (Compare Pantsir to Otomatic for example)

There are no weapons of similar capabilities, that’s the entire point of combative development. The Brimstone itself in its correct form still wouldn’t be an equal to the Kh-38MT, and for the primary competitor (America) there isn’t a missile constituted as equal because of the shoddy industry as a whole.

@dedale_stargate

Or you introduce Assymetrical balance by trying to reproduce each countries doctrine, which mind you is a quite large rabithole. In such a case, the SPAAs replacement for western countries would be CAP, meaning western CAP should be cheap enough to be first spawnable, while whoever gets better SPAA can spawn those instead.

Ground Simulator Battles. If you want to serve the role of Interdiction, spawn an F-16 and rack up 6-7 kills. It’s currently open season for any American player, since there are literal packs of Su-30s and Su-34s. My F-15E has gotten quite a few of them.

@dedale_stargate

Of course non of this discussion matters because Gaijin already stated they are going to add long range SAM sites to everyone, except 2 years late…

They did? Hell yeah.

[dedale_stargate]

@TheArcticFoxxo

The only argument to be had is to either remove the missile from platforms, or give a counter to it.

Yes you found out yourself. War thunder is a game, not reality. In reality there are counters to those weaponries, but they weren’t added in WT for technical reasons (multiple chassis SAMs is harder to develop).

In the meantime, you simply don’t add the missile, that seems quite logical

@TheArcticFoxxo

The Brimstone itself in its correct form still wouldn’t be an equal to the Kh-38MT, and for the primary competitor (America) there isn’t a missile constituted as equal because of the shoddy industry as a whole.

Or because they based their doctrines around deleting long range and medium range SAMs before attacking ground units. Maverick is also quite bugged and will sometimes hit random places on a tank for no particular reason.

@TheArcticFoxxo

Ground Simulator Battles. If you want to serve the role of Interdiction, spawn an F-16 and rack up 6-7 kills. It’s currently open season for any American player, since there are literal packs of Su-30s and Su-34s. My F-15E has gotten quite a few of them.

You’re once again evading the issue. We are talking about ground RB

Your sound like you want KH38 to stomp because it’s better IRL (is it though ? that’s an other question), and it should therefore be reflected in game. But then you quickly forget to mention the counters that also exist IRL but would be too difficult to implement in game.

In such a situation, the only logical thing to do would be to remove the missile for the time being, and add it again when counters exist.

[Thodin]

No offense, but comparing Mavericks to KH-38 is like comparing an air gun to AK-47 rifles. Let aside all the other specifics like less speed, less range, no IOG. Its simply to weak to kill MBTs. Even unarmored vehicles hav a good chance to survive a Mav hit. If you hit. Most shots somehow fail, this whole weapon system is anemic.

This also applies for other F&F ammunitions I use ingame. Like PARS-3. It just doesn’t generate kills, no killpower. Even an truck which should evaporate just gets damaged with a full hit. For an MBT you need like 4 shots. An AA truck sometimes can’t be killed at all (likely to its size, it somehow absorbs damage). All you can hope for is to kill an BMP with one shot.

While KH-38 has more speed, more range, immune to smoke (IOG) and leaves a huge impact crater. It kills everything around. When two tanks are close, both will be destroyed. Its another league and the game isn’t ready for this. There is no chance to survive once it got fired off the rail, except hard cover like a house or really ALOT smoke + fast movement.

[MotorolaCRO]

@dedale_stargate

Things would be so easier if the maps were bigger (more difficult to find a tank), and if you could spawn anything first

I bet they had no idea how to balance things if they let everything spawn first. Current CAS implementation feels like it was patched in to a Ground only mode in a hurry, without much thought behind it.

In a real combined aspect mode planes should have much more things to do than just bombing tanks that are locked in a bowl.

@dedale_stargate

In the meantime, you simply don’t add the missile, that seems quite logical

I think this is a long gone option if you ask Gaijin.
You’d need to remove half of the higher tier CAS weaponry if you wanted SAMs to have a good chance of countering them.

They have set it up in a way where CAP is a much better and, in plenty of cases, only counter.

[dedale_stargate]

@MotorolaCRO

I bet they had no idea how to balance things if they let everything spawn first. Current CAS implementation feels like it was patched in to a Ground only mode in a hurry, without much thought behind it.

In a real combined aspect mode planes should have much more things to do than just bombing tanks that are locked in a bowl.

Agreed

@MotorolaCRO

I think this is a long gone option if you ask Gaijin.

Unfortunately so do i

I wish they had thought about it before introducing those things but what’s done is done. I’m just hoping they learnt from that mistake and won’t make the same one again with longer range AAs. Unfortunately, hype is a pretty big driver in what they add or not (because hype generates income), so i’m only moderately optimistic

[ShOt_MaCkEr]

@Thodin

Like PARS-3

Yea, this thing is as powerful as a wet firecracker

[MotorolaCRO]

@dedale_stargate

I wish they had thought about it before introducing those things but what’s done is done.

I think they genuinely wanted for stuff to develop that way. AA is just an afterthought for them.

@dedale_stargate

I’m just hoping they learnt from that mistake and won’t make the same one again with longer range AAs.

Don’t get your hopes up.
We got rewards for destroying ordnance so it might be their excuse to keep adding CAS that can’t be killed by AAs if played semi decently.

I think we’ll get ARHs with like 15km effective range at most, with planes out shadowing this by few kilometers.

[warthogboy09]

@TheArcticFoxxo

Ground Simulator Battles. If you want to serve the role of Interdiction, spawn an F-16 and rack up 6-7 kills. It’s currently open season for any American player, since there are literal packs of Su-30s and Su-34s. My F-15E has gotten quite a few of them.

Sure you get 5-7 kills a game, but it doesn’t matter when the braindead mode KH-38s let them fire at 5-6 targets the second they leave the runway. You might win the air in the end, but you lose the game because you have no tanks left on the ground. And that’s completely ignoring the fact that only one side has effective SPAA to intercept your own munitions and 3rd party you while you are dealing with their Air. Literally spent 5 hours doing just this from both sides. Claiming this is balanced is pathetic.

[Morvran]

@TheArcticFoxxo

There are no weapons of similar capabilities, that’s the entire point of combative development. The Brimstone itself in its correct form still wouldn’t be an equal to the Kh-38MT

Brimstone 2 would be very close and definitely brimstone 3 would be.