More pen, and 700+ g TNT eqv on an aphe shell, sure make an argument about the reload but russian 122 also has a longer reload with less pen but it is still balanced based on its one shot potential. Sure angle all you want ur tortoise, it doesn’t eliminate the cupola and a new flat spot that is created elsewhere. As i said 250-180=70, obv it’ll spall okay in the tiger turret, yet you can’t compete with aphe from the same tier jagdtiger which has superior armor (you don’t even need to engle the jagdtiger most of the time lol) and talking about armor, the jagdtiger has a measly little mg port that is really hard to hit as the only frontal weakspot, talk about a fat chonky boy that leaves u helpless. Compare that to tortoise, it has a huge cupola, huge mg port with flat armor in the vicinity, flat gun mantlet, relatively flat lower hull near the transmission. All of these combined makes for various options to face a tortoise with. Add to this fact the gun uptiered to 7.7, nahh spare me. Whereas if the tortoise does go down to 6.3, same things will still be able to pen it in the same spots, it’ll just be saved from the 7.7 hell where it’s gun is obsolete and it’s armor is useless and it didn’t have mobility to begin with.
I don’t have exp with the vehicle so I can’t tell if u r right, but I’d bet that the jagdtiger will have an easier time killing a t34 than a tortoise if what u say is correct lol.
IS-2 compensates for the reload by having a turret and being more mobile, although I think the IS-2 (1944) should be 6.3, and possibly the regular IS-2 to 6.0 (although I genuinely think more BR decompression is required here).
Sure, some new spots arise near the corners of the Tortoise, but a lot of it was already there previously.
Its definitely an improvement.
You can definitely shoot the cupola, but I genuinely think it’s not that reliable, as you may not shoot exactly at the lower center of it, and if you do manage to not overpenetrate it, you will only get the driver / load / machine gunner, requiring two shots to kill it, and perhaps even dying to it due to the gunner still being alive.
Yes, the Jagdtiger would have an easier time, but the gun handling, reload, neutral steering, and even the reverse speed, is better on the Tortoise, which makes it much easier to aim and deal with upcoming threats.
Maybe, but I don’t think that the Tortoise is that bad.
I have a friend who plays it quite often, and said to me that it is reasonable for the BR, which I can somewhat see given its attributes.
The fact that the tiger 2 h can pen the unangled tortoise front like that as seen from ur ss says a lot. Combine that with the fact that everything can pen you at your weakspots and some things can easily ignore ur armor kinda makes the heavy weight and poor mobility tradeoff a waste at this br, further Heavily limiting ur already limited playstyle. It is a casemate, they are supposed to be tanky for the most part, but the tortoise is kinda meh~, sure a player who doesn’t know the tortoise MIGHT struggle with it but they still have pretty apparent weakspots in clear sight (not everyone can bush those up including myself for now) and an experienced player will never struggle with u, especially in stuff like the tiger 2 or the (potato heavies) t34 t29 etc. combine with that an okay gun (no aphe) and poor mobility, and the 7.7 abominations and heat.
BUT if move it to 6.3 it will eliminate one of the problems, to some extent two, but the situation will still remain same. Everything can still pen it at it’s weakspots even at 5.3, so what has changed really? Just that it has some insurance of the 6.7 heavies not being there in a full downtier and 7.7 not being there in full uptiers, but 6.7 br is really popular and you’ll get some good amount of uptiers . 5.7 is also popular so we have this 5.7-6.7 bracket where you are going to have most of your matches, here there is still the same heat shells, the same 6.7 tanks that can lol pen you. What’s the problem? It just makes the vehicle a little more competitive in uptiers.
Edit:Also in my belief a slow casemate at the same BR shouldn’t look that green lol 😂
I looked at ur profile and i blame those results on the player, damn u, u r singlehandedly making my argument weak lol. But sure, do play the jagdtiger and tell me. (I said those things in jest)
The 76mm gun on the shermans are pretty common at around 5.0-5.7 BR range. It can only penetrate the cupola, which does not kill the gunner. You would need to shoot there correctly at least 2 or 3 times to kill it.
Even the Panther’s gun cannot penetrate anything more than just the Cupola and the machine gun port, which has even less explosive filler than the 76 sherman.
The only thing in a downtier that is remotely scary (and common enough) are the Tigers, which can overpressure with PzGr. But the lowest one is at 5.7, with the VK 45.01 (P) being 5.3, but also being very rare. These vehicles should be extremely easy to deal with, as their armour (even when angled) shouldn’t be a problem, same with the Panthers.
All heavies and heavy TDs have to deal with 7.7 heat slingers. The Tortoise is not alone.
If anything, the extremely well armoured Jagdtiger would suffer more from them, due to having to rely on its armour more than the Tortoise, as well as having a much worse reload, and gun handling.
The gunner is standing up right behind that flat 250mm plate.
Instead we have high pen HEAT(FS) like on the M-51, M56, Type 61, etc. Which can even go through the JT’s UFP and have enough postpen left over to kill the driver, gunner, AND one of the loaders.
With its shorter reload, better hull traverse and gun arc, the tortoise is much better suited at countering the various poorly armored cold war tanks.
As you said, charioteer can do it. And there are many others “around 6.7”, some of them stabilized (FV 4202 and friends). And as I mentioned above, heat slingers are a dime a dozen.
Jagdtiger has a pretty significant edge in one thing- firepower (this thing let’s you handle uptiers). Like 270mm pen with so much tnt eqv will be able to one shot post things still.
Exactly, the much better reload makes it so that you can engage more than one target quicker, or take a following shot if the first one didn’t do enough damage or not penetrate (albeit Jagdtiger would not really have that issue too often).
In a downtier, the round and reload of the Tortoise is much more useful than the Jagdtiger’s, which its gun is only more useful if you’re dealing with large, heavily armoured targets.
You’d have no issues 1-shotting the Panthers and Jumbos through center mass shots.
I love TOG II 94mm AP round at 5.3, especially considering it has a 6s reload. Doesn’t need APHE since center mass shots almost always 1-shots most tanks. The penetration is enough to do it against most vehicles it faces.
Similarly with the Shot Mk.8, found on the Challengers, Comets, Avengers, and Fireflies.
Challenger most notably since it gets a 5s reload with it.
Sure quick reload is funny in a downtier where u can pen stuff easily, but in an uptier having a good shell is much better imo, especially when ur armor can’t save you anymore.
And honestly I’m not waiting for 8 sec if an opponent misses his shot or non pens me.
???
How does the Tiger II H have a gunner sitting behind 250mm of armour?
The Turret cheek of the Tiger II H is only 185mm thick.
There are quite a few that don’t have much armour.
I’m looking at the M46, Ru 251, M47 (albeit its UFP is fairly good), M48 (UFP is decent and mantlet is good, but LFP and whole turret cheeks are absymal), Marder A1 and AML-90.
All of these are pretty squishy in general.
Quite a luxury at 7.3 to be honest with you.
I quite like the FV4202, and I am surprised the Cent Mk.2 is still at 6.7, despite having a two-plane stabilizer and good turret armour.
T34 has a better shell, but the Tortoise more than compensates for it by having a much better reload (8.6s instead of 14.9s).
Mobility of the T34 is good, but its top speed is fairly lackluster compared to other 6.7 heavies.
Its armour is quite mediocre (other than the turret). You need to angle for the hull armour to be good enough to reliably stop the long 88mm’s APHE round. The mantlet itself is decent but is still a giant weakspot.
Both are quite survivable, although left turret cheek of the T34 will instantly kill it, as well as the LFP, in certain conditions, with AP / APDS.
The right cheek of the Tortoise (next to the gun) can also detonate, given enough HE filler to be reliable:
