J7W2 (the paper plane that was about [■■■■■■■■□□] 80% complete, despite not being designed yet)

Machinery of War Discussion
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Note: this is not a suggestion just a compilation of data for the airplane that could have been.

J7W1 Origin:
The Kyūshū J7W Shinden or 震電, “Magnificent Lightning” is a World War II Japanese prototype interceptor, with wings & propeller at the rear the J7W1 was to be armed with four, 30mm type 5 autocannons in the nose.

J7W1 Shinden

J7W2 jet powered upgrade:
A future jet engine–powered version was taken into consideration during the design phase for J7W1 during ww2 but the J7W2 never reached the drawing board, this is where the “what if the designers got to complete their idea” segment begins. Since the airframe from the J7W1 is in the game Gaijin would just need to replace its prop for one Ne-130 or Ne-230 jet engine. Just because it has a new engine does not make it a new plane exactly, this is still a proven and flight capable J7W variant not a made up aicraft that could NEVER FLY! (more from article below flight evidence photo)

In an article written by Kunitake Kiyohara, former deputy chief for the First Design Section of the Kyushu Aircraft Design Department, for an aviation magazine.

In his own words, Kiyohara wrote, “At the ‘Shinden’ Prototype plan requirements in 5th of June 1944. Air Technical Arsenal’s engine department instructed, ‘Proceed with the design taking into consideration the use of a gas turbine engine.’”

The engine to be replacing the propeller-engine on the J7W2 Shinden-Kai would have a static thrust of about 900kg, roughly 3,000hp more or less, and would give it a speed of about 780km/h(current Shinden is at 750 km/h for context). However, it need a takeoff booster rocket like Kikka had before it. The planned engine appears to have been the Ne-130 jet engine being prototyped at Ishikawajima. This engine was being mainly preprepared for the Ki-201 Karyu however the Karyu was not finished and its half finished prototype and engines was found some years ago,

Kunitake Kiyohara transelated words “I thought the Tomoe War era was finally coming to an end. Considering the engine arrangement of the Shinden, it didn’t seem that difficult to replace it with a jet engine. I remember feeling excited that it would be something I wanted to make happen as soon as possible. In the end, this did not come to fruition, but Kyushu Aircraft also prototyped the twin-engine jet attack aircraft, the Kikka, designed by Nakajima Aircraft, and the war ended when the first unit was almost complete.” (Kikka we already have in the game despite having the unreliable Ne-20 engines)

1st trial production dates:

  • Ne-20: March 1945 (could have been installed in the Shinden but was rejected due to reliability concerns)
  • Ne-130: May 1945 (the engine the designer wanted, this engine was unfinished and safe to say if he had gotten one or more it would have been tested with it.)
  • Ne-230: March 1945 (another engine being tested was even more reliable than the Ne-130)

In the same article it was stated replacing the propeller engine with a jet-engine was according to them fairly easy however the Ne-130 engine they needed to complete the aicraft was not ready at the time due to a shortage or precious minerals making mass-production unfeasable, then the war ended and political situation at the time killed any further development an testing. Which is a bogus reason to reject a aicraft this close to completion! This airplane can fly and we all know it, engine was half finished the airframe was ready and flight tested with 2 prototypes.

J7W2 Shinden Kai “Magnificent Lightning Improved”

Weapons:

  • Guns: 4× 30 mm (1.181 in) Type 5 cannon with 60 munittions per gun
  • Bombs: 4× 30 kg (66 lb) or 4× 60 kg (130 lb) bombs

J7W2 tech specs:

  • Crew: 1
  • Length: 9.66 m (31 ft 8 in)
  • Wingspan: 11.114 m (36 ft 6 in)
  • Height: 3.92 m (12 ft 10 in)
  • Wing area: 20.5 m2 (221 sq ft)
  • powerplant: 1 × Ne-130 jet engine (based on BMW-003, this engine was the planned engine but not ready at the time, it was more durable to heat than the older less reliable Ne-20)
  • alternate powerplant: 1 × Ne-230 jet engine (both the Ne-130 and Ne-230 was at the time being built for the Karyu, they are both likely to fit)

Now the suggestion for the Ki-201 Karyu passed since it was partly built that means its engines is also a option, the J7W components were all 100% completed minus the engine all the neccesary parts are already in the game all we need to do is to smosh them into one gorgous aircraft. There is NO REASON WHAT SO EVER that a jet Shinden would not have worked when the Yak-15 clearly proves that converting a prop to a jet is very much not impossible! However if the Karyu gets added, the engines will be ready and in the game waiting. Even with that I would like to remind everyone this will not be a super OP wunderwaffen at just 780km/h, most aicrafts using a similiar BMW-003 style engine to this needs two of them! This will be at best be comparable to barely better than the Heinkel He 162 Volksjäger(840 km/h for context), in other words it will not be super overpowered maybe a bit more manouvarble than a 262 but by no means overpowered or anywhere near a F-86 Sabre competitor. Which is a funny thing floating around in the internet hehe! XD

What constitutes a paper/fictional vehicle:

  • Vehicle only existed in blueprint/sketch drawing form [false] J7W1 there was 2 prototypes flown, since the engine could easilly be installed it if obtained.
  • No major individual, vehicle-specific parts (i.e. guns, powerplants, etc.) of the vehicle were built [false] 2 prototypes flown + guns were used on other aicraft, engines would been shared with Karyu
  • No parts unique to the vehicle were built. [false] J7W line had several unique parts
  • Vehicle is a completely made up, unofficial design created by an individual [?] there was more than one person on the design team that wanted to complete the plans, they would have completed the plans if engines were produced in a usable number, however the rare minerals needed was a issue)

What constitutes an (unfinished) prototype can be either:

  • Vehicle was (partially) constructed [passes] J7W1, there was 2 prototypes flown.
  • Vehicle-specific parts (i.e. guns, powerplants, etc.) were built [passes] yup we have all of them, even a half finished engine.
  • A hull was laid down [passes] J7W1 protoypes just needed the engine swap so yes?

Logic for it should be approved:

  • It had two fully completed protoype that is more than Ki-201 Karyu.
  • It will use the same unfinished engines as the Ki-201 Karyu.
  • It is proven to fly with propeller engine, a engine replacment is not make it a totally new aicraft.
  • Unlike the R2Y2 V1 we know EXACTLY 100% WHERE THE ENGINE SHOULD GO!
  • EVERY SINGLE COMPONENT except the engine of this airplane is 100% known, we have the numbers & specs War Thunder snail god can make a realistic representation with minimum issues.

Sources:
Kyushu J7W Shinden - Wikipedia (japanese page)
https://mainichi.jp/graphs/20171111/hpj/00m/040/003000g/20171111hpj00m040019000q
List of aircraft engines used by the Imperial Japanese Army Air Service - Wikipedia
J7W1 | War Thunder Wiki
Kyushu J7W2 Shinden-Kai | World of Warplanes

Final toughts:
This jet is probably the most complete paper aircraft there is from Japan so very close to be passable, we have all the data needed even the info about the engines from the approved Ki-201 suggestion. However rules are rules and it will never get a pass as a suggestion on this forum. (could only ever be added if Gaijin decides to do it, Gaijin breaks their own rules sometimes so maybe?) :3

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It will never be implemented as there was not even the start of a prototype.

The Ho-229 wasn’t finished either, yet it is in game because most of it was prototyped.

Same goes for XP-55 → prototype finished took off and crashed on maiden flight.

In all matters WT is not implementing jet that weren’t build, and in such it’s not because WOWP have those that we should have those aswell.

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https://wiki.warthunder.com/unit/f_16aj

https://wiki.warthunder.com/unit/r2y2_v1

2 of very many, the bigger issue is does the tech-tree need it or not? I would argue that Japan has holes in their lineup, also sooner or later they will probably reach the bottom of the barrel…

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R2Y2 just got removed for the reason they’re unrealistic (base on the Propelled R2Y1 project, that had been prototyped)

New players can’t got them anymore.

And F-16AJ is simply a F-16A ADF block 15, with some features of the F-16A Blk10 (ground attack) both of which existed, so data are realistic.

(The current F-16AJ project expected to add pylons for missiles onto Gear doors, thing that we don’t have in game, because it hasn’t been made onto any real F-16)

It is also a Gap aircraft that might get deleted once the Mitsubishi F-2 is added.

J7W2 or 3 have no blueprints at all,… as you said already, the J7W2 didn’t even got to Drawing boards.

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I agree that the R2Y2 is a bit unrealistic the V2 and V3 looks like Korean War era designs, however I do not think removing these planes is the solution due to Japans lack of airplanes…

I think something more grounded in reality would be better Ki-162 is for example just a copy of He-162 there is few reasons that could not have worked for example. (that airplane is even less likely but still very realistic)

Edit: J7W1 proves it would work, Yak-15 needed more modifications than the J7W1 would need and yet it fly just fine.

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Many other sub trees can get added, last one is Thailand, but a South Korean one can be aswell, to give japan some:

F-86F
F-5E
F-4D and E phantom II (some E were still in service up to 2024, so there might be some interesting upgrades)
T-33 Shooting Star (biplace F-80)
A-37 Dragonfly (already in game as BP event aircraft)

And for later aircrafts:
F-15K
F-16C blk 52
FA-50
F-35
KAI KF21 Boramae

And to replace R2Y2 the T-33 and A-37 would be plenty

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Foreign planes is not really Japanese ones, the licence built ones are a bit better. Oh and I do not think adding Korean sub-tree to Japan will be taken to kindly… :s

However most of these except for the T-33 will not be low BR, that is where the issue is the most!

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That’s not how it works, you either need prototype components specifically designed for implementing the jet engines, or an entire new airframe that was designed for these engines from the start. The potential for conversion of one design to another does not equal a prototype, as it is still entirely an unfulfilled paper plan.

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image

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In his own words, Kiyohara wrote, “At the ‘Shinden’ Prototype plan requirements in 5th of June 1944. Air Technical Arsenal’s engine department instructed, ‘Proceed with the design taking into consideration the use of a gas turbine engine.’”

Kunitake Kiyohara transelated words “I thought the Tomoe War era was finally coming to an end. Considering the engine arrangement of the Shinden, it didn’t seem that difficult to replace it with a jet engine. I remember feeling excited that it would be something I wanted to make happen as soon as possible. In the end, this did not come to fruition, but Kyushu Aircraft also prototyped the twin-engine jet attack aircraft, the Kikka, designed by Nakajima Aircraft, and the war ended when the first unit was almost complete.”

  • former deputy chief

Edit: (added this image I drew to better prove my point about how easy it would be to install the engine)

[Album] imgur.com

I did draw this from memory but I am 95% sure it is accurate.

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I feel like this plane will only need a photo of the prototype or some official diagram from WWII, like you said if it had built prototypes there’s the tiny chance that somewhere in Japan there might be physical media relating to this airplane just like the engine parts of the Ki-201 found more than 70 years after the war ended, I know it sounds crazy but one can only hope

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South Korea should never be a subtree. It’d only really fit USA, and they aren’t lacking in vehicles at all. The only relations Japan and South Korea have is mostly negative. The only time that I can think of when SK and JPN worked together was recently, with China, against American Tariffs.

It’d also further isolate North Korea from the game. Ideally we’d get a United Korean Tree, and a Turkish subtree if Turkey themselves don’t get their own tree.

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and the OI Tank tracks that were reportedly found (don’t take my absolute word for it)

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Yeah that even passed as suggestion in 2024!

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But they never proceeded with the engine swap no? The ability to easily swap the propeller engine for a jet one, regardless of if it was an idea thought up during the war, did not manifest in any sort of prototype, which puts it below the Ki-201 in terms of likeliness to be added.

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You mean the singular link we already know of or a full length of track?

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Yes by the rules it is unlikely however the facts are on the table, Gaijin can with these facts make a working realistic aeroplane for the game. It is very few things that is a mystery here, infact the Kikka got in despite having unreliable engines, the Karyu can get in but it has never flown granted it being a Me-262 variant means it probably would be able to fly if completed. J7W1 to J7W2 speed increase is not that much it would probably be kinda like how it went with the Yak-9 to Yak-15, including to that the He-162 is faster probably since it is made from wood!

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It seems very doubtful to me that Gaijin would be interested in adding more paper aircraft right after removing the R2Y2s, but to each their own I suppose.

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Yeah but there they did not even know where the weapons and engines where suppose to go and just stole ideas from other jets aicraft 262, F2H & MiG-9 etc etc. The J7W2 is at the very least has data to back up where everything should go, gameplay wise they would be nearly same but one being a bit faster and way more noisy… (also hit boxes is probably 99% same)

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The R2Y2 V1 is actually somewhat of a real design as it had been proposed during the war, same as the J7W2. Both vehicles have around the same amount of supporting evidence and progress of design and Gaijin still chose to remove the former. So while you may find the J7W2 realistic enough, the no-blueprint planning level clearly isn’t enough to be added.