Why does Italy not need a Panther?
All Italy has in the 5.7 range are 2 spg with poor armor. The Sherman Vc (5.0) is too weak to fill the void due to lack of adequate armor and poor speed. After the Vc Italy needs to wait for the M26A1 at 6.7. That’s a giant gap.
As a poster in another thread shows Hungary used Panther D tanks - so that could easily be added to the tech tree after the Turan III.
And it’s not like other countries don’t have borrowed tanks.
Iranian tomcat was our only hope its joever now.
This. 100%.
Also, Italy can get a Panther through Hungary anyway. Where it’s much clearer these were Hungarian crews and not Germans in that theatre.
Having all nations play the same tank at same BR MIGHT make the game more boring…but that is just my opinion…
Said before that i would rathter see France NOT having a Panther…one of the reasons would be requests like this one…and some will eventually be taken…
TBH…having these vehicles as premiums does make them rather rare in game…and playing arcade the effect is less obvious…BUT it is a bad principle IMHO. Neither France nor Italy used Panthers in WW2, and having them appear “in large numbers” is a not a good idea…even if players from these nations like it… :)
(I did suggest that tanks that have “explanations” like these, should have a higher BR…to cope with their rarity and/or the fact that they were used only much later than the original version)
Battle ratings being used for anything but balancing is a horrible idea, especially the idea with rarity.
just give them the Carro Armato P76/45 Il Duce xd
With that logic Italy deserves it, yes.
But when you put this logic aside:
There is a reason why Italy performed on this abysmal low level in ground warfare. A leader with “Roman Empire” fantasies declaring war vs France & UK in June 1940 and willing to sacrifice a few thousand men in order to benefit from an expected defeat of both nations (colonies) resulted in sending his troops ill equipped into a war.
Even if Italy would have got their hands on a few Panthers - their surrender in 1943 prevented this. And even if they would have been better equipped: The lack of oil/fuel rendered their quite modern and powerful Navy useless, it seems logical that their army would not have been able to turn the tide.
I do agree that such ideas is an immersion killer. But imho it is way too late for that - i wait for the next P-51 B/C clone in a future BP even (Germany had one too 😎) or similar stuff.
Based on how wt looks today - agreed.
Based on how wt could be - not really.
If you see wt not as a plain vehicle based shooter:
Every vehicle which never saw combat or service (including prototypes) kills the individual character of nations. So representing different design approaches or doctrines is the main purpose of a nation based Tech Tree. If every nation has everything there is no need for nations.
honestly a very strange criteria for inclusion in the game, china never used the T34-85 during ww2, but they still had the second most fielded ever. likewise france was the second largest user of the panther, sure it was postwar, but its not like this is exclusively a ww2 game, nor has it been for a very very long time. hungary got a few panthers during the war, enough to make up a large portion of their armoured group, and romania got a few T-Vs after the war from the USSR,
you should look at it as italy getting a panther, but as hungary or romania getting one and both have good justification for it
So i was told on previous discussion…and i understand the point. My view is that ODD (in the sense that they were historically irrelevant or non-existent) vehicles like these (French or Italian Panther) should NOT be as easy to field as the historical (German) version…so some mechanism should make them RARE.
Making them premium works somewhat…and is good for sales in France or Italy i guess…BUT a 0.3BR premium doesn’t sound so bad TO ME…even assuming this would create a bad precedent…
Russians already have a Panther…France also…it would make it a bit odd if “allied” would field several Panthers on a “Axis vs allies” macth…
Not sure if it still happens…but some air matches were P47s (US, Germany, Brits, China, Russia, Italy) for everyone some time ago…and it was neither fun nor historical… :)
Hungary was the only non-German Axis country that used the Tiger and Panther. Not captured it, not bought it, but never received it like Japan, but had it in service.
Its interesting to start scrutinizing such vehicles after Italy received its American c&p that Italy mains were so desperate for.
Hungary is a nation in War Thunder, and like any other in-game, it has the right to vehicles that were in service in its army. Especially ones that were acquired by normal means, as in, not captured trophy vehicles.
It could be a premium as Hungary has the TAS that is eligible for addition with two different calibers. It would certainly make a great full lineup. Something that the Italian tree had problems with for a long time and still sort of has.
Hungary as a sub-tree is meant precisely to fill the gaps in the Italian tech tree, so Hungarian vehicles are welcome where they’re needed. Now, setting aside the TAS, which I don’t know well but seems a bit obscure and maybe highly prototypical for the game, a Panther D at BR 5.3 is quite irrelevant. If it had been one of the Panthers at 6.0, it would have made more sense — but as it is, at this point a T-34-85 is better: even though it’s at BR 5.7, it works perfectly to fill the gap left by the absence of a proper medium tank at BR 6.
The Panther D could work as a premium, like they did with the ‘Tigris’, or in an event. But aside from being a collector’s item, it doesn’t really contribute much to the tech tree — a 5.3 tank doesn’t even have a line. A tank at 5.3 does nothing but constantly drag you into 6.0 matches, with the rest of the line sitting at 5.0. I recently had (again) the same experience with the VC, and honestly, it’s not something I ever want to go through again.
Anyway, history doesn’t change: Italian development basically stopped in 1943, and after that came the American tanks. If someone’s unhappy about that, well, there’s not much that can be done
That’s your interpretation based on zero official gaijin statements.
THIS^^ makes no sense to me…
Lots of vehicles have as “second largest” user some nation that captured a few of them…that does NOT justify adding these vehicles to that nation…
I know france/panther situation is a bit different…but irrelevant nonetheless…knowing that French Panthers are used on games with german Panthers…
If you want a “Panther” on the italian tree…this makes more sense in WT terms…even if i still think it should get a BR “hike”…
Unfortunately the 44m was never fully built
Fortunately the hungarians did get given panthers by germany, making them the second biggest user of non captured panthers
It was partially built, so it is eligible for addition.
it was about 80~% done, I think. It was bombed on 07.27 but the turret ring was functional in June, and the turret was being welded together from 07.06 onwards. Only the 80mm gun was late, due to which they ordered a stopgap 76mm. (The optic for the 80mm still exists today)
Um, tell that to all the US vehicles in nearly everyone else’s tree?
That bridge has been crossed long ago. Also, I don’t see an issue with an Axis nation getting an Axis vehicle.
It won’t…having vehicles on “similar” sides is less of a problem. In some cases these vehicles were even used a lot (i.e. Brit Shermans).
BUT…if you put a very good tank on many nations, it will become omnipresent…hence boring…you could have only Tigers and Panthers at axis 6.0…adding eventual russian and french ones :)
THAT SAID…Italian Panther as a premium is not the worst case, and Italy 6.0 is already a mess…but i fail to see justification for it…as in the french case, hence my opinion…
Having Italian Panther just because Italian players want a shiny toy is not the best idea…as it was NOT in many cases in the past…
EDIT:
I changed my post instead of adding a new one by mistake…my bad…
Anyhow…the point is clear enough…
I don’t see how an Axis nation getting an Axis tank will make it more boring compared to Axis nations getting Allied tanks.
It’s fake. The full metal model was made after the war.
