[Would you like to see the I derby ER presented for aircrafts?]
Yes
No (explain why)
0voters
For the past 2 or 3 majors Israel didn’t get nothing to improve their air capabilities, no new missiles nor top tier jets.
Due to the lack of competitive abilities from the Israeli air tech tree I think it’s only fair and balanced for it to get the I derby ER missile for their jets, until gaijing adds more domestically built jets and weapons and upgrades the current jets to have realistic avionics and a chance at top tier.
Possible jets to use the I derby ER:
F16c barak 2 (the official cite of Rafael states that the f16 can carry the I derby ER although it doesn’t state a specific variant so practically it could carry it)
F16d barak 2 (pictures, says ״ברק״ which means “barak” on the hard point )
Kfir c.10 blk 60 (source in “details” + screenshot)
F16I sufa (same as the f16c barak 2)
M346fa(as stated on Rafael’s main site, not relate with the Israeli tech tree)
What Israel definitely needs are aircraft like the Sufa with AESA radar, the F-15IA also with AESA radar, etc.
I support adding the I-Derby-ER and Python 4 missiles for these aircraft, but Israel urgently needs its 14.3/14.7 aircraft; it’s literally the only nation that doesn’t have those BRs. I have said repeatedly that the only aircraft with that technology (Kfir C.10 Blk 60) could be a 13.7/14 br if it had those missiles and was more realistic mechanics, but it is true that Israel still lacks domestically produced aircraft with itself armament and avionics.
They’re China but they completely lack Rank 1-3, so you have to grind another nation just to unlock them. They’re just China but harder to unlock. Should’ve been a sub tree within the U.S.
Im going to be brutally honest. I dont think I-Derby for any of these airframes is a good idea.
I dont know how I-Derby performs, but the last thing you want to risk is any BR increases, None of those F-16s have AESA which is a notable advantage and the Kfic C10 is lacking in hardpoints even more so than the F-16s. I have no idea how they would perform comparitively speaking, but if they are good, then they would likely result in said BR increases
On something like the F-15I (Which you havent listed there) maybe, but would still be at a considerable disadvantage to the F-15C GE.
Dont get me wrong. Israel is screwed at top tier at the moment, but I cant help feel that a BR increase for any of those stated aircraft would be a net loss at the moment, where their current lower BR would be healthier
Exactly this, Israel needs these weapons on an airframe that is at least on-par with other top tier aircraft to begin with. Starting with something with AESA.
Weapons is a matter of balance by developer’s decision, M-346I, which is the M-346 Master variant operated by Israel is the trainer only variant, though it can integrate advanced weapons, this airplane is only limited to BDU-33, AIM-9L and ATM-9L as far as I’m aware from imagery sources:
And as you can see FFAR launchers as well, but I’m not aware of which variant its. M-346I Master information are rather vague, I’ve tried to make a suggestion of the airplane based of information from the M-346FA which was promptly rejected because it lacked information for the M-346I specifically, M-346I would need to be handheld by the M-346FA, which is unrealistic since the M-346I is a Israeli modification based of the M-346AJT.
Misc, Rejected suggestion post
Israeli-made weapons list for the M-346I which I consider being realistic for balance and implementation of the airplane
[poll type=regular results=always chartType=bar]
# Would you like to see this in-game?
* Yes
* No
[/poll]
*M-346I* [(Source)](https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-plane-in-billion-dollar-deal-with-italy-lands-in-israel/)⁽¹⁾
---
[details="Background"]
The history of the **Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master** can be traced back to the Soviet Union in April 1990, when concerns were raised by Soviet Air Force Commander-in-Chief **Alexandr Nikolaevich Yefimov**⁽²⁾ regarding the replacement of the ageing Czechoslovak-made **Aero L-29 Delfín** and **Aero L-39 Albatros** trainers. These aircraft could no longer meet the requirements for training pilots to operate both contemporary and forthcoming next-generation aircraft of the **Soviet Air Force** (VVS). By June 1990, a final resolution had been issued tasking the **Mikoyan Experimental Design Bureau** (Mikoyan OKB) with the development of a new trainer aircraft, and in January 1991 the formal UTS (Uchebno-Trenirovochnyi Samolyot) trainer competition was launched.⁽³⁾⁽⁴⁾
*MiG-AT* [(Source)](https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/mikoyan-mig-at/)⁽⁵⁾
In June 1995 the **Yak/AEM-130D** as static display, it was first shown to the public at the **Le Bourget air show**, a year before its 38-minute maiden flight at **Zhukovsky Airfield** in April 1996, flown by the chief test pilot **Andrey Aleksandrovich Sinitsyn**.⁽⁴⁾ The airplane showed considerable promise, and under the agreement between the two companies Aermacchi obtained the rights to modify and market the design in Western markets. As a result of the programme's success, the **Yak/AEM-130** brought to Italy the following year as a prospective replacement for the ageing **Aermacchi MB-339** and the newly formed **Russian Air Force** (VKS) announced plans to procure up to 200 airplanes.⁽⁶⁾
*Yak/AEM-130D* [(Source)](https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/3948047488)⁽⁷⁾
By October 1998, financial reports indicated that the **Yak/AEM-130** programme was becoming **increasingly Italian-led** as Russia's financial difficulties **limited its participation** in the joint Yakovlev-Aermacchi venture. At the same time, the Italian government announced plans to allocate approximately **$241 million** over the coming years to fund the airplane's continued development.⁽⁸⁾ This marked the beginning of the **Aermacchi M-346 Master** independent development. While it continued to be developed alongside the **Yakovlev Yak-130**, the airplane was tailored for **NATO and Western export markets**. As result, it diverged significantly from the **Yak/AEM-130** design by incorporating **Western-built systems** throughout, including new engines, dedicated full-mission simulator and a new digital flight-control system.⁽⁹⁾
*Aermacchi M-346 Master* [(Source)](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aermacchi_M-346-002%28w%29.jpg)⁽¹⁰⁾
The **Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master** has proven to be a highly capable airplane throughout its operational service. Around **100 airplanes built**, with more than **150 airplanes ordered**⁽¹¹⁾. Although production numbers remain below those of its sibling, the **Yakovlev Yak-130** with roughly **210 airplanes built**, the **Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master** is nevertheless the **second most-produced** next-generation trainer airplane with the **Israeli Air Force** (IAF) as the type's **largest operator**, fielding around 30 **Alenia Aermacchi M-346I Master** under the designation *Lavi* (**לָבִיא**, "Lion Cub" or "Lion"), where the aircraft serves exclusively in the advanced training role.⁽¹⁾
*M-346I* [(Source)](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M-346.jpg)⁽¹²⁾
[/details]
[details="Specifications"]
*Alenia Aermacchi M-346I Master load-out*
*Alenia Aermacchi M-346FA Master load-out*
[/details]
[details="Sources"]
1. *Final plane in billion-dollar deal with Italy lands in Israel* by I. Zion, 2016 at [timesofisrael.com](https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-plane-in-billion-dollar-deal-with-italy-lands-in-israel/) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260523143153/https://www.timesofisrael.com/final-plane-in-billion-dollar-deal-with-italy-lands-in-israel/)
2. *UTS trainer competition: Yak-130, MiG-AT, Sukhoi S-54, Myasishchev M-200* by Tuomasn, 2006 at [secretprojects.co.uk](https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/uts-trainer-competition-yak-130-mig-at-sukhoi-s-54-myasishchev-m-200.27/post-792) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20231206152012/https://www.secretprojects.co.uk/threads/uts-trainer-competition-yak-130-mig-at-sukhoi-s-54-myasishchev-m-200.27/)
3. *Russia’s tenacious trainer* by A. Mladenov, 2018 at [keymilitary.com](https://www.keymilitary.com/article/russias-tenacious-trainer) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260523181051/https://www.keymilitary.com/article/russias-tenacious-trainer)
4. *Yak-130 Combat Trainer of New Century* by JSC A.S. Yakovlev Design Bureau, 2005 at `yak.ru` // [(Archived)](https://web.archive.org/web/20220214161616/http://www.yak.ru/ENG/FIRM/art_switch.php?art=4)
5. *Mikoyan MIG-AT* by Aero Corner editorial team, 2021 at [aerocorner.com](https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/mikoyan-mig-at/) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260305082408/https://aerocorner.com/aircraft/mikoyan-mig-at/)
6. *Yak/Aermacchi trainer funds released; Russia will buy up to 200*, by Aviation Week editorial team, 1996 at [aviationweek.com](https://aviationweek.com/yakaermacchi-trainer-funds-released-russia-will-buy-200) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260523202943/https://aviationweek.com/yakaermacchi-trainer-funds-released-russia-will-buy-200)
7. *Yak 130 '296' (0240000013) Paris Air Show 1995*, by emdjt42, 2009 at [flickr.com](https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/3948047488) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260523204146/https://www.flickr.com/photos/emdjt42/3948047488)
8. *Italy studies the Yak/AEM-130 as Russia falters*, by FlightGlobal editorial team, 1998 at [flightglobal.com](https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/1998/10/italy-studies-the-yak-aem-130-as-russia-falters/) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260524043541/https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/1998/10/italy-studies-the-yak-aem-130-as-russia-falters/)
9. *Aermacchi assembles M-346 trainer team to replace Russians*, by FlightGlobal editorial team, 2000 at [flightglobal.com](https://www.flightglobal.com/aircraft-programmes/2000/08/aermacchi-assembles-m-346-trainer-team-to-replace-russians/) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260217094606/https://www.flightglobal.com/aermacchi-assembles-m-346-trainer-team-to-replace-russians-/33550.article)
10. *Second Prototype M-346 at Le Bourget 2005 - air show*, by O. Bichel, 2005 at [commons.wikimedia.org](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aermacchi_M-346-002%28w%29.jpg) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20250613011807/https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Aermacchi_M-346-002(w).jpg)
11. *Leonardo delivered the final batch of four M-346 aircraft to Polish Air Force* by Leonardo S.p.A. editorial team, 2022 at [aeronautics.leonardo.com](https://aeronautics.leonardo.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/leonardo-m346-polish-air-force_news) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260524060101/https://aeronautics.leonardo.com/en/news-and-stories-detail/-/detail/leonardo-m346-polish-air-force_news)
12. *An Israeli Air Force Alenia Aermacchi M-346 Master "Lavi" of the 102nd Squadron Taxi back to ramp in Hatzerim Airbase* by N. Gershuni-Aylho, 2022 at [commons.wikimedia.org](https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M-346.jpg) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260524054646/https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:M-346.jpg)
[/details]
---
Notes:
It's included archived versions of all sources webpage. They're optional to access, but I decided to provide them to preserve information used in this suggestion post in case the original pages are altered or became unavailable in the future. `yak.ru` doesn't work anymore, that's why the hotlink is unavailable, an archived version-only is available.
Integration of Israeli-built systems, why is referred as M-346I
Elbit Systems SkyBreaker full-mission simulator and operational flight simulator in one system part of an IAI and Elbit Systems joint programme under the Advanced Flight Training which includes a Ground Based Training System (GBTS) provided by Elbit Systems to integrate Israeli-made and other weapons such like the Delfasco BDU-33 (25 lb) PB, IAI SPICE 250 (250 lb) EO/GPS and RAFAEL ADS I-Derby ER MRAAM.
19. *Trainer Jets for Israel: From the Skyhawk, to the M-346 Lavi* by Defense Industry Daily editorial team, 2015 at [defenseindustrydaily.com](https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/trainer-jets-for-israel-05105/) // [(Archive)](https://web.archive.org/web/20260524210321/https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/trainer-jets-for-israel-05105/)
https://web.archive.org/web/20260524210321/https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/trainer-jets-for-israel-05105/
Exactly. The Merkavas were originally US vehicles in WT and if you look at Israel’s other domestic contributions (i.e. unique, non-copy paste vehicles), they all fit very nicely in gaps in the US tree. The US doesnt have any spike IFVs and the TCM would be perfect for the US.
Well, I could argue that the Kfir C.10 Blk 60 should indeed add the I-Derby-ER missile; however, its upgrade level won’t be too significant precisely because of its capacity disadvantage (which, if we could be flexible, could even be limited to just 2 ER missiles), and besides, it’s historically accurate. Besides, I wouldn’t want to talk about the Python 4/5 missiles because a Blok 60 with a Python 3 has never been seen, but that’s what Gaijin wanted.
What players wanted.*
Considering we’re seeing how players oppose Mig-29K & J-15T at 13.7 & 14.7 respectively due to low CM count, it’s safe to say that a 14.x Kfir C10 Block 60 would be unpopular.
Realistic loadouts that compliment BRs are superior to what IRL militaries fly up in the air with.
So why market the game as realistic if the BR is what matters?
I don’t see why it would be unpopular; anyway, the plane has been leveled up without any improvements (unlike what happened with the F-14 IRIAF). Furthermore, it’s already confirmed that the F-14 will have AIM-9M missiles, and before that, the argument was the same. I think the only players who don’t want the br to increase due to the addition of historical weaponry are players who don’t use the Kfir C10.
I’m not confusing real militaries with realism; that’s what Gaijin does.
You’re wrong. The Kfir C.10 Blk 60 uses Derby-ER and Python 4/5 missiles; that’s historical fact. If you do a little more research, you’ll realize that the Kfir C.10 isn’t exactly the same as the Kfir C.10 Block 60. They (Gaijin) just added the radar and Derby missiles to the Kfir C.7 and called it that.
Agreed but it seems that gaijing doesn’t even plan to do some of the suggestions you just said so what is pissing off is that they don’t even try to compensate us for the severe lack of top tier jets or realistic armaments and avionics.
If you did it, you would agree with what I’m telling you.
Yeah dude I suspect that the update following this one, or the one at the end of the year, might offer some hope. Greek vehicles will also be allowed in anyway: That means: Rafale copied for Israeli TT
