Is It Time For More Top Tier Modern MBTs?

Dev Server Seek & Destroy General Discussion - Dev Server
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102

I mean… if there’s a 5 ton weight increase leaving aside additional equipment and the weight saving measures, I doubt they are exactly lighter xD

And here’s where the issue lies.

Making well-educates guesstimations based on available sources should be acceptable.

If we KNOW armor is improved, any improvement estimation based on what we have is better than not modelling any improvement at all.

Imagine if Leopard 2A7V had the exact same armor as Leopard 2A4 ingame because Gaijin didn’t consider reliable enough the sources about its improved armor… imagine they said: “we know it’s improved, but we don’t have solid sources stating numbers/values, so we will just keep it like 2A4’s instead”. Because that’s what’s happening with the Abrams.

There’s a point, when it comes to fully clasified and secret vehicles, where making well educated guesstimations should be acceptable, instead of keeping the armor blatantly wrong just not to make a move.

103

Well the SEPv3 is supposed to have a new armor package in the form of NGAP, the problem is that we don’t really know much about it beside the name.

104

I agree. Gaijin takes 0 liberates when implementing a vehicles.

They are so conservative and sticklers for their sources that they will purposefully and blatantly add a completely wrong vehicle without a second thought on it.

That’s fine and dandy that SepV3 gets different armour package but in the eyes of Gaijin all the V3 is going to get is the SEP(Same Exact Protection) with a few extra plates added on. Because no sources stating the increased protection will be able to found since its all classified.

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105

This is going to be the problem with more Modern MBTs eventually being added to game.

T-14
KF-51
2A8
M1E3
CR3

And any others.

Theres so little information on these tanks outside of “Designed to protect against modern threats”. That gives Gaijin the leeway to completely fudge the protection in anyway they believe.

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106

For top tier there are some USSR and Russian Objects worth even for top tier.

107

Some of the improvements with the SEP v3 include, but are not limited to:

  • Improved power generation and distribution to support the increasing power demands
  • Compatibility with joint battle command network
  • Survivability enhancements including Next Evolution Armor
  • Additional floor stiffners
  • Hardware to improve lower limb protection
  • ?Reinforced suspension elements?
  • Changes to internal structural supports
  • Reduced vulnerability to IEDs
  • Improved lethality via ammunition datalink
  • Incorporation of auxiliary power unit
  • Improved silent watch capability
  • Total Integrated Engine Revitalization (TIGER) engine
  • Upgraded transmission for improved power pack reliability and durability
  • Improved computer systems to include microprocessors, color flat panel displays, memory capacity, Soldier-Machine Interface (SMI)
  • Block 1 Second Generation Forward Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) for the Gunner’s Primary Sight and the Commander’s CITV for improved thermal ranging night vision capabilities.

The wiring alone for all the different kinds of systems bolted onto the M1 platform account for possibly up to several tons.
You are consistently underestimating the multitude of additions the M1 has received, and their subsequent weight increases.

108

Not at all, I am just aware that weight-saving measures were taken to make up for the additional weight of those upgrades.

4 tons of additional equipment, 4 tons of weight-saving measures… and yet, there’s still 5 more tons to account for.

Besides, you did NOT include SEPv3 improvements alone here; you have included improvements of the entire SEP program, and mostly from the base SEP.

My whole point is about the multiple extra tons from SEPv2 to SEPv3, when the majority of the features you listed had already been implemented between SEP and SEPv2.

109

I’d love to know what source you are using for those exact weights.

I did not.

Everything I’ve stated is listed directly and exclusively under M1A2 SEP v3 features from official U.S. documents (DOT&E and DOD Budget Justification Book).

110

There is nothing called ZTZ-99A2, but gaijin can still add ZTZ-99A late or something (minor changes on that, basically a c&p);

ZTZ-99A prototypes (WZ-1001, the in-game WZ-1001 is the very early-stage prototype, which could be named WZ-123AY);

VT-4B (said to have a new autoloader capable of loading lengthen round with longer penetrator due to the requirement of Pakistan Army);
image

If talking about the next-gen, there is a candidate but there is very little information about it excepts some photo

111

Because they already include retroactively the features of the SEP program.

For example: Auxiliary Power Unit and Second Generation Thermals, which are listed there, came with SEP. See what I mean?

The SEPv3 page just includes all SEP-related improvements respect to base A2.

112

Just because these systems are present on a previous itteration doesn’t mean they can’t be upgraded or subject to change.

These sources clearly state: ‘‘The M1A2 SEP v3 includes multiple upgrades to […]’’

113

Although i do like high tier mbt’s, i think they should first focus on filling current gaps in the ground tech trees.
But in general they should focus on ground more since the last updates all seem to be more air or premium based.

They’ve been adding to much modern tanks based on guess work lately, resulting in either unfair gameplay, broken mechanics or irritated players. Plenty of unique mid range vehicles that could be added to fill those gaps.

Not sure where the majority of the player base is ground br wise, but i think we can all agree the mid range doesn’t get much love these days.

And offcourse they should stop being lazy with the copy pasting of tanks and start adding some unique stuff.

114

No. It states: “Some of the improvements with the SEP v3 include […]”, which includes previous SEP improvements respect to the base A2 model.

You know what SEPv3 includes, straight quote from General Dynamics?

New in the SEPv3 upgrade are additional electrical power from an auxiliary power unit (this proves they include previous SEP improvements retroactively on SEPv3’s list), network upgrades, stronger armor for greater protection, an ammo data link to interface with advanced ammunition and reduced maintenance strain.

The reason why they include all SEP/SEPv2/SEPv3 improvements on the SEPv3 page is because it’s their latest and current product and they want to highlight all of its features compared to the base A2.

Now… we can choose to ignore General Dynamics’ statement on “stronger armor for greater protection”, but I don’t think there can be a more primary source than this.

115

Really dude?

afbeelding

afbeelding
afbeelding1826×54 30.9 KB

I can read you know?

Okay, you clearly can’t read though.

116

Apparently not. From your own screenshot:

The purpose of this program is to upgrade M1A1 variant tanks to the M1A2 SEPv3 tank configuration. The M1A2 SEPv3 includes multiple upgrades to improve: (…)

This proves that the purpose of their listed improvements is to highlight the features M1A1 variant tanks would gain from the SEPv3 upgrade program, which, retroactively, includes changes that came with SEP and SEPv2 already.

Because it’s easier and quicker to say “SEPv3 changes include (all in all)”, than to say: “SEPv3 includes (X), which came from SEPv2, which actually came from SEP”, specially because that’s irrelevant information.

117

They might be better off focusing on the mid to low ground br range for a bit (a few updates focussing more on ground instead of air would be welcome). Plenty of ww2, post war and cold war vehicles that still could be added to the game. Ground and air.

I don’t know where the majority of the player base lies ground br wise but i feel like they should start filling some gaps before moving forward. Makes the grind more fun and fair too.

Top tier ground wise i agree with you, they’ve moved to fast. And not only that but most if not all is just them guessing. Resulting in unfair, unrealistic or broken mechanics. Or the endless copy paste we’ve been getting lately offcourse ;)

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118

Yes, that’s why it clearly divides the lists of improvements between SEP v2 and SEP v3.

afbeelding

119

This proves my point.

Here, it lists the second generation FLIRs on the SEPv2 changes, not on the SEPv3 ones, as you listed above, for example:

Above, you listed 15 features, while this screenshot lists 7 features. That means you initially did indeed list features from all SEP iterations respect to base A2 retroactively, while this second list specifically addresses SEPv3 changes respect to SEPv2.

The reason why APU is listed on SEPv3 is that it’s a new model compared to SEP/SEPv2’s, indeed. But one that would reinforce my point regarding weight, if anything: I don’t know how much SEP/SEPv2’s APU weights, but SEPv3’s APU weights 190 mere kg. 10kW Low Profile Auxiliary Power Unit (APU) for M1A2 Abrams SEPv3

If the APU, one of the heaviest new additions, weights 190 kg, you can imagine the rest of the electronic/electric improvements won’t surpass 4 tons, which is exactly what was saved as well with the weight-saving measures.

Then you have 5 extra tons left. 5 extra tons that can’t be explained without attributing them to further armor improvements.

I insist:

M1A2: 62 tons
M1A2 SEP: 62.2 tons (+200 kg)
M1A2 SEPv2: 64 tons (+2,200 kg vs A2, + 1,800 kg vs SEP)
M1A2 SEPv3: 67 tons (+5,000 kg vs A2, + 3,000 kg vs SEPv2)

All of this when there’s also -4,000 kg worth of weight-saving measures between A2 and SEPv3; and even in spite of these, the tank got 5,000 kg heavier.

It is impossible and nonsensical to suggest that the tank got 9,000 kg worth of extra/improved electronics and electric systems when even the heaviest element, the APU, weighs 190 mere kg. Accounting for all of the electric and electronic upgrades, as well as all of the quality of life improvements, it is impossible that these add more than 4,000 kg.

Now you got 5,000 extra kg that can only be explained via additional armor.

Analysing just the weights and taking into account all the new features and the weight-saving measures, I would dare to speculate:

SEP: turret armor improvements. Weight saving measures + additional turret armor weight + APU = 200 extra kg.

SEPv2: SEP’s turret armor improvements + first hull armor improvements. Further weight saving measures + lots of additional armor + quality of life improvements = 1,800 extra kg, a substantial increase vs SEP.

SEPv3: even further turret and hull armor improvements. Minimal improvements + substantial armor improvements = +3,000 extra kg compared to SEPv2. An incredible armor upgrade by this point can not be denied.

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120

Yep!

As far as I know, A2 is just how some refer to a slightly different ZTZ99A. As you said, there’s no official “A2 variant”.

Basically Type 10 / TKX level of “different”. Virtually identical, but still useful for lineup reasons.

Interesting stuff about the 140mm variant! I also knew about VT5, which I didn’t list here for not being really an MBT, but not about that tank you shared here. It’s interesting! It appears to be closer to a lighter MBT than a light tank like VT5 is.

I also know which next gen possibility you talk about! We will likely learn more about it in the coming years, it looks badass as hell!

VT-4B, interesting too!

121

Because I’m qouting multiple sources, there’s numerous pages which detail changes made for the SEP v3, and some list more/different elements than others.

I previously asked you to provide a source for these weight saving figures, you’ve still not provided any.

I am once again asking for your source.

I’ve not been able to find a single mention of improved hull armour for the M1A2 SEP or SEP v2 outside of mentions that specify ‘‘Frontal armour improvements’’ relative to the M1/M1A1.