The rest of the sentence is kinda important. If it was just about SPAA then yeah the gap would be oppressive but since germanys CAS is somewhat lacking compared to the current top dogs it doesnt feel as oppressive even if your SPAA is lacking. It would be a lot different if germany had S tier CAS
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I mean the AESA EFT is far from the best top tier CAS jet, but pit it against the Spyder and it will be oppressive (and not in favor of the Spyder lol).
Everything is A+/S tier CAS when you have to use that garbage can of an AA.
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Yeah sure but looking at how awful the spyder is id guess the matchup would be oppressive no matter the enemy SPAA/CAS combo. Its not like it would fare a lot better against a Rafale+SAMP combo
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im sorry vastly more speed? the VT 1 missile travels at 1250Meters per second while pantsir is 1300, it’s not much at all.
The guns have an effective range of about 2km so if you’re in that zone then you’ve made a mistake anyways.
I made reference above to the gap between teh likes of ADATs and the pantsir was huge.
Germany still had tha flakrad, which while not great isn’t terrible either, very middling.
Sweden got ITO, china had TOR, , france had ITO as well.
Isreal and japan got left to rot though, and ITaly I wont even mention as it had OTOMATIC until now xd
Not really, there’s a lot of locked posts, and overall comments on how strong it is by players.
the vast majority of folks I see chanting “russian bias” have never used russia.
The vast majority of multi-nation players don’t believe in russian bias. Which I am and don’t believe it lol. I’ve 8 out of 10 nations at top tier for ground and air.
RN the buff to the T80 reload rate without any furhter consideration to gameplay I will say was heavy handed and ridiculous.
As well as the BMPT shows clear premium biases.
How ? if the IRIS T is nearly a full 0.6KD above the nearest platform, and has a higher winrate while the pantsir sits lower than comparable SPAA how was it more oppressive? xD
lets even look at teh BUK, before it even hit live servers there was youtubers crying russian bias, before it was even in the game properly.
If the BUK performed even half as good as the IRIS T folks would be here with pitchforks and torches.
I know man, I used to use the gripen, F16, and even the hunter F58 at top tier i had no choice
for cas, pantsir was a great SPAA, but I got shot down more to ITO, VT1 slinging platforms, the missiles were a lot harded, and still are, to dodge.
and yet the ITO Still has overall better statistics than the pantsir.
I know hwo good it was, and I am not saying it wasn’t a good SPAA, but folks make it out as if comparable SPAA from some other trees weren’t able to keep up.
The likes of japan, isreal, italy all got left in teh dust unfortunately, ADATS was about the same.
But anything which had VT1 slinging missiles actually wasn’t as bad as folks made out.
Imagine BUK performed as good as IRIS T Rn
Seems to be the standard man, I defend balance lol, I’ve got almost every tree in the game top tier ground and air bar italy and sweden.
The IRIS T is absolutely diabolical.
Yeah but all of the other SPAA you can effectively notch, out manuever the missile and orget terrain to catch it out.
IRIS - T it’s neigh on impossible to do that especially in the likes of a JH7A, or a tornado etc.
Hell there was 2 claws up the last match i played as china at 12.7 and I managed 2 full passes, 2 ground kills and an air kill in the Jh7 before they got me.
IRIS T I cannot even get to the battlefield.
Not really?
The IRIS T missiles are far better at maintaining lock, they also have the highest range last I checked but sky saber may out range it.
They absolutely annhilate what they get near as well.
Yeah checking out the spyder makes me feel like stopping at the machbet xd
The VT1 doesnt stay at that speed very long. Theres a reason for the 8km range dif in tthe statcard.
Yeah fucking peak with 2 missiles and a reload long and wonky enough to paint a picture of the KH38 thats about to vaporize you before you have the next missile ready
So what is it? Are there a lot of posts and comments or are there not?
And about 100% of the people defending russian bias are in some capacity playing it so whats your point? A consens in the general playerbase is a still consens no matter what the mythical multi nation players think.
Man you really like ignoring the second part of the combo, do you? If the Pantsir was just the Pantsir people would have said “too scared to spawn a tank CASboi?” to every complaint but inventing the KH38MT for the same tech tree that coincidentally had the only SPAA somewhat capable of dealing with it made the combo oppressive. The entire reason people complain less about the IRIS T is because germany doesnt have the CAS to truly make the combo insufferable
Firstly for the second one there is also a tt bmpt that’s busted so it’s not just a premium bias.
Secondly I’m not even talking about that when talking about Russian bias, I’m talking about stuff like the LMUR being the only agm with correct lofting for no reason. Stuff that’s completely obviously wrong and benefits only one tree
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It’s not, it’s 0.42 above the Sky Sabre, which should have independent launchers like BUK and would undoubtedly be even better.
Maybe because it has guns which causes people to also use it for other stuff than AD?
The amount of people i see die to Pantsir is staggering, people spawn it when getting Spawn Camped as a last resort too. Also i don’t know if the new free spawn mechanic affects the K/D but it might.
Buk literally maintains like M3 at 30km, Aster while it loses speed like crazy has a better time to target and is just better in kinematics, i think even the new FM-3000 of the HQ11 has better kinematics, the SLM goes subsonic at 16km, max effective range is like 20km. Also its not like ARH doesn’t have advantages, you actually have a chance to kill LDIRCM Helis (except the Mi-28MN, SLM can kill that one) and intercepting munitions is easier.
So it’s not the best in terms of anything other than having an IR seeker and maneuverability, a strong base with the quirk of having an IR seeker is the reason it’s so good, considering most planes have no MAW and flaring Seeker Shutoff+FOV Shrink isn’t really practiced it’s no wonder people die in droves to it.
What holds Buk back is the size and bad radar, on forest and flat maps it shines very well tho.
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Sky Sabre Datalink also does not work, just as a bonus.
the 8km range “advantage” on the pantsir missile is fabricated as well, it’ll drift that far but it wont actually be able to intercept anything which isn’t just flying in a straight line.
Did anyone say it was great? it said it was middling, it wasn’t great, it wasn’t terrible either, the ADATs for example was substantially worse.
How can there not be a lot of locked posts and overall comments saying it’s strong, in relation to it as a vehicle.
As well as no where near as many folks standing up for the clear difference in vehicles?
You realise those two can both be true yeah? the overall sentiment is that it’s oppressive, and there are lots of locked posts on it, about 9 last I checked.
Compared to pantsir though? there are but a fraction of posts, you’ve taken the two comments out of their relative contexts to try create a situation where it makes them look daft.
the second comment, is related to the mention of pantsir, in which there are literally hundreds of posts between platforms on it, purely cause it was russian.
Which is easily shown as there is no where near the same number of IRIS T posts even though it is statistically more oppressive than the pantsir.
I’m sorry do you believe in Russian Bias?
Not at all, but people massively downplay NATO cas, as if germany is on it’s own every match and not paired with and has the best air platform in the game.
the KH38s were initially added on a su25 platform, no matter how good the missile is, you can deal with that easily as a CAP plane, the pantsir was and is no where near as strong at keeping down CAP as the IRIS T is.
on top of that even when Su34 was introduced it was massive, easy to shoot down and handled like a bus.
it with pantsir wasn’t much of an issue for a player who wasn’t completely brainless.
If you die to a pantsir shooting you in spawn, you’ve went too far and it wouldn’t matter if it was an adats, a pantsir, a gepard you’d be dead.
Yet to be shot down by one, or see them doing anything, on any map.
Their KD literally shows how terrible they are mate.
Ah yes, most planes don’t have a way to detect the missile is there? so it’s a huge bonus for it mate.
Even if you realise it’s there, it’s almost impossible to get the missile off you.
The TT one is far more manageable to deal with as far as I’ve seen in comparison with the premium one.
Stuff which has happened in multiple trees over the years?
vehicles being added at ridiculously low BRs and being moved up.
Over performance of munitions, or correct modelling for one tree and not another?
That has been a running theme of gaijin since the game was launched.
Consistently inconsistent.
Neither does SLM/IRIS-T; the only reason they reverted this change was because they could literally not get Datalink to work and made long-range shots impossible.
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Yes because like i said SPAA on its own is probably not what people percieve as oppressive, its the combination with CAS or in the Pantsirs case also the CAS it was pitted against. Ofc the IRIS T is vastly better than the Pantsir but its in a completely different environment.
Do they really? Its a lot better now sure but the only thing coming close to the KH38MT in terms of speed and destructiveness are the Hammers. The rest is either slow, has terrible HEAT warheads, a Mach 1 release limit or all 3.
Seems like thats a you situation since the TT one performs noticably better statistically
Compare the amount of preferential treatment the russian tree got in the past ~2 years with the other trees. Sure everyone gets thrown a bone at some point but you literally need to pull examples out of multiple other trees just to match the stuff russia got. And even then you get unexcusable stuff like the LMUR lofting and the IRBIS performance. Just for clarification i do not think that russian bias makes russia the best tree in the game in any capacity. I think Gaijin selectively bends the rules for russia so they can stay competetive at the top which is why its imo a rather recent Phaenomenon
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Double loft or IR+IOG+DL fixed yet? I’ll play the SLM again once it is no longer useless to LDIRCM
Oppressive doesn’t mean it has to affect both air and ground.
It can be extremely oppressive against air without changing much on the ground.
The euro fighter typhoon is largely either the best or second best platform in game yes.
And Kh38 again is launched off a far, far worse platform in comparison with the NATO platforms.
that was until Su30, which is still further behind FM wise but closes the gap somewhat.
Perhaps, but the premium one has the misfortune of being just that, it can be bought in literal Droves unlike a TT one which as to be unlocked. The TT one is easier last I checked to be one tapped once penned in comparison to the Premium, unless that’s changed.
uhm what?
T58 was dropped, Scharnhorst dominated navy for years, the Puma dropped at 8.7, XM800T was added stupidely low, FOX absolutely slammed and still does, STRV 122 at top tier, leopard 2A7 still dominates for best top tier MBT.
Tigers, panthers sat at lower BR’s than their counterparts and still do for years.
Leopard 1 sat at 7.3 while every single other MBT which was the same sat at 7.7 or above, even the T54 was 7.7 and leopard was 7.3.
that’s just some of the crap I can think of, off the top of my head. the only two proper russian Bias vehicles we have seen since I started was the KA50 and the 2S38.
Not at all, the list of stuff the other two major nations like USA and Germany have had is massive as well.
People just get hyper fixated on the Russian stuff so they can cry russian bias.
They do not have a russian bias.
it matters for the perception in the community. An IRIS T cant blow you up in a tank without you having any counterplay whatsoever.
Minimal gap with the SU30 and none of the other stuff matters when you have 38MTs vs Mavericks, Brimstones and Spears. The only thing comparable is the Rafale with Hammers.
For the rest. Adding something busted is not russian bias as i understand it. Look at all the things in the past 2 years and tell me where other tech trees got artificially buffed over others or where russia got a completely artificial nerf. Russian bias is not “when T80 is better than everyone else” its “T80 can keep up, because the opponents get targeted unrealistic nerfs and the T80 gets unrealistic buffs”. None of the other trees has profited that massively from dubious changes as ussr top tier has.
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That minimal gap isn’t minimal at all.
The su 30 flight performance wise is significantly worse than all the euro canards, and F16s.
The mavs are also not bad missiles at all for lock and launch and ducking out.
The euro fighters cas wise are rhe worst cause of only having brim but the newer AESA models have extra CAS ordinance as well.
Everyone goes on about the KH38 being OP af when it’s not that much different to anything else.
I’ve yet to actively see someone make us of the range of it.
Everyone just uses it the same as a mav and flies over the battlefield hurling them out.
Auto loaders.
They were rhe first nation to get auto loaders for the longest time.
Meanwhile other nations which used auto loaders didn’t get them modelled.
Also now saying adding broken vehicles doesn’t show a bias? How does it not.
When you said above the BMPTs are biased?
What massive buffs have USSR had to favour them at top tier please tell me?
Their round is mediocre, they have a 6.4 second reload on tbe BVM, they have the same weak spots since 9.3, they have poor mobility.
The reload on tbe T64 coulr see it moved, amd the 10.7 area adjusted.
But the actual top tier of russia, which you really have never touched, hell you’ve never played them.
Sucks.
T90Ms biggest advantage? Folks continously shoot tbe UFP , t72B3 etc all suck for tbeirBRs.
Meanwhile the USA has the likes of the M1A2 sitting at what ? 12.0? Lower than leopard 2a5, Same BR as the TKX (P) ?
That in of itself is artificially buffing another nation.
The m1a1 sat at 11.3 when all these BR changes came in and ruined 10.3 - 11.3 single handedly.
So yeah what buffs have russia actually had?
Other than a likely not real missile being added.
Cause the stuff with LMUR ive seen being discredited.
Ypu claim it lofts properly but provide no evidence of this.
So again, find me an artificially buffed change russia had at top tier for the past 2 years ?
Another artificial buff for nato, sweden has the J35XS still sitting at 10.3
No one cares about the range, the seeker doesnt even allow it to fully use that. The big difference is that the MT is more than twice as fast as the mavericks and thanks to its 152kg HE warhead doesnt suffer from the terrible inconsistency that plagues Tandem Heat warhead instead it can easily wipe a group of SPAAs.
Great so the one example you could find was from like 3 years ago.
The difference is why the BMPTs are broken. Its not just because its undertiered, thats standard for premiums. Its the blatant bs like the “external” ammo that makes the situation infuriating and the complete unwillingness from Gaijin to do something about it.
Pleas use your eyes, the lofting character of the LMURs is so obviously correct while everyone else has years old, accepted bug reports regarding the trajectories. Just take a look in the relevant threads theres plenty of footage.
Other than that: The SU30SM getting engine racks for R77 for which theres is absolutely 0 proof whatsoever. ERA still being a complete joke modeling wise while western ERA is complete garbage in every regard. Turret baskets being integrated for Abrams and Leopard selectively but when something similar would have happened for russian tanks Gaijin did
that. The good old stinger vs Igla situation. A russian Pesa radar having straight up better scan speed than every single AESA in the game. Russia getting their absolute best possible rounds while everyone else has to deal with decade old garbage. LDIRCM on the MI28NM being so hilariously modeled that a bottom mounted emitter can somehow affect missiles through the fuselage of the heli.
Can do that with the mavs too bud. Easily.
so many people cry about the range dude.
Well aware of that.
That’s one off the top of my head dude.
Was under 2 years ago you realise that?
There are posts on both the forums and reddit about 2 years ago talking about them not having auto loader modules.
Again there are more examples in there if you want me to go digging around for em.
hell the reload speed on the auto loaders has been incorrect for years alone.
R-77 was and still is useless at any longer ranges.
The mig29s were nerfed into the ground to the point their FM’s are still incorrect.
@AlvisWisla can tell you more about the FMs than I can.
Su27, Su30 recently got nerfs to their FM as well last I checked not even long ago.
They already are starting to nerf and change them though the addition of them at 10.3 was ridiculous.
Again, your “eyes” are not how the missile is seen to be performing.
As far as I’ve seen it still doesn’t perform how it’s advertised. Not that I am saying that it should but it genuinely doesn’t get correct lofting how it does IRL.
One google takes me to posts all over the internet showing it with R77s mounted at the engine nacelles, which seems right to me?
Western ERA isn’t a complete joke for what it’s designed for, it doesn’t overperform like russian ERA but it’s still not supposed to be stopping APFSDS rounds.
Auto cannon fire yes, specifically I know about the STANAG protection on the CR2 kits should be far higher.
Though russian ERA isn’t that “op” either, the relic on the sides pretty much disipates and will kill or disable the tank.
unless you use a round like L23 or something daft.
They added them as a test, which can be seen to actually brought them back into the fold balance wise, You can’t even argue that as the damn leopards are still some of the best top tier MBTS, and statistically the M1A2 last I checked still had the best stats of any top tier MBT.
1.60 KD to the 2A7 1.56.
T90M 1.22 and BVM is barely 1.33.
As well as this, turret baskets will still be applied to all of those vehicles and more, the abrams series and leopard series aren’t suffering from it. At all.
T series, chinese MBTs would be completely ruined by it.
Also last I checked the FCS and such have been modelled now as well as the auto loader has more additional parts to it, so again they are still there and modelled.
the Stinger VS Igla situation from years ago , which btw there are factors of balance as well as the fact part of how the stinger operates isn’t even modelled in game which brings it do the level of IGLA.
4
their best rounds are still mediocre rounds? their literally bottom half of hte rounds we have at top tiers and in most BRs, only the 3BM42 at 10.7 is a pretty strong round, even then it is still beaten by the L26, Type 1985-I , DM33 , the M322 found a near full BR lower with near 600 pen, as well as USA getting the M829A1 round at 10.3 , which is better than 3bm60 never mind 3bm42.
Doesn’t the chinsese Z19E or whatever it is do the exact same thing?
https://community.gaijin.net/issues/p/warthunder/i/D0UQng0JosZM
You mean this one? which is fixed and the captor M and such are now how they should be?
Can we stop debate something inappropriate here… or someone will end up on my grill…
Spoiler
About 100KG TNT diff tho.
Yeah my bad, i checked it the first devblog i found is 14th June 2024 however youre still lying, because the Leclercs and Type 90/10s got theirs as well only the chinese didnt seem to get them.
Been hearing that forever, never once got a link for a thread or bug report tho, same for the flankers.
Doesnt mean its wrong.
And they changed it the instance a “proper” source was found to the best possible value.
Yeah they changed the upper part of the belt so destroying it disables the turret (like on any unmanned turret in every other tree) but left the lower part thats literally inside the vehicle as external lol
You can just check the hit analysis and see that the angle is vastly higher than every other single AGM. Or this handy comment LMUR's Top Down Attack does not Exist? - #26 by HondaCivici
Not talking about the nacelle ones, i mean the ones in between the engines. The SU35 has those, there is no proof for the SU30SM tho
Im not talking about APFSDS, look at the difference in Chemical protection
Doesnt matter. The simple fact that they have no problem to selectively employ something like the baskets for only 2 tanks but actively refuse and explain why they refuse to do the same for the others is plain bs.
Years ago, not fixed, hilarious explanation by Gaijin, “If Igla formed how can be better than Igla”
Doesnt change that everyone is being held back, because the T series cant keep up
That one has the same LDIRCM layout as the 64E, 2 emitters on the stub wings not the single bottom mounted one of the MI28NM
Nope its not fixed. The Captor E now has the supposed maximum mechanical speed limit for all widths despite the narrower bands being AESA only and its still overall slower than the also partially mechanical PESA IRBIS
Eh, Gajin already reverted the change so its not like this thread serves a purpose anymore