Improved Naval EC as a permanently available mode for naval battles

Would you like to see this in game?
  • Yes
  • Yes, but with alterations
  • No
0 voters

This is a suggestion for a permanent, enhanced Naval EC mode to mostly replace the current capture point based mode.

As it has become obvious, the current naval battle map setups are not feasible for a succesful, popular naval mode.
Currently, there are several main issues my suggestion seeks to adress:

  • The spawns are too close and often within view, allowing for immediate firefights, leading to unsatisfying deaths at the start of the match (made worse by the bots targeting those who spawn first)

  • It isn’t suitable for other naval vessel types (i.e. submarines and perhaps carriers) or more modern ships equipped with missiles for the above mentioned reason, making higher br ships hard to implement

  • The slow, cumbersome, larger ships are ill suited for weasling between small islands and going from one cap point to another within any reasonable time

  • In naval battles, an immobile target capturing a point is a dead one

  • Modes such as the singular capture point with teams spawning on either side largely make ship types with little armor redundant and drive away players trying to grind trough the naval trees if they have to face battleships in destroyers and light/ heavy cruisers as they are the easiest targets and thus picked off by the entire enemy team

  • The fights are too messy with almost all ships concentrated in one or two locations

  • When spawning, the ships constantly ram each other, making any strategizing, maneuvering or proper aiming impossible and occasionally even pushing their teammates into enemy torpedo volleys (that can be directed right at their spawn points due to the current lackluster design of the naval mode)
  • The vessels currently in the game cannot be played to their various strengths or bring all their weapon loadouts to bear (such as the 3.3 italian destroyers with 52 mines that will only lead to their demise when equipped as of now, as well as coastal and blue water ships with depth charges for anti-submarine warfare… also just most coastal ships at br ranges where they can face destroyers, as only fast and nimble torpedo boats and the OP SKR ships can face them eye to eye)

What I suggest for a new and improved naval EC mode:

  • Spawn points similar to current ec, near harbors or other POIs, further away from initial enemy spawns which allows for a more strategic playstyle and safer spawning, as well as players being more spread out
  • A spotting system for (player controlled) recon planes (both ship launched and planes historically used in this role such as the bv138), allowing them to “discover” convoys and other potential targets (possibly including players) and marking them and their current heading on the map for the team. This marking will fade/disappear with time unless the target is actively shadowed by the plane
  • AI Carrier strike groups and airfields launching occasional AI plane squad attacks against spotted targets of interest (such as players) within range, allowing for a more immersive experience and keeping players on their toes, even while not engaging other ships in battle. The larger the ship, the more attractive of a target it becomes once spotted (as in real life). Spotter planes near convoys within range may also be targeted by ai fighter squadrons.
  • New damage mechanics such as oil trails for ships/submarines that were hit in the fuel tanks, making them easier to spot from the air, requiring visiting a port or submarine base to fix
  • Dynamic events, keeping any naval EC match from getting boring. These are listed in detail below.

Dynamic events such as:

  • AI convoys (like in the “battle of the north atlantic” event) of more various ship compositions than the current ones and with varying levels of warships protecting them, which make for enticing targets for minelayers and submarines to ambush and for destroyers/light cruisers which are fast enough to give chase and battle face to face. Players on the side of the convoy could be rewarded for keeping the convoy safe over specific time intervals or they could receive additional rewards for killing enemy players that are within a certain range of the convoy or which did damage to the convoy (no idea if this already is a mechanic, I apologize if so).

  • Coastal bombardement targets at varying ranges away from the water, acting like bombing points in air RB, offering possibilities for battleships and other vessels with large firepower and range to gain XP without having to face enemy players necessarily (the targets are different and in addition to the already present coastal fortifications).

  • Rescue missions for survivors of sunken ships and downed planes (especially convoy ships). These would drift in/near lifeboats and will have to be rescued within a certain timeframe. This can be done by any sufficiently sized naval vessel or seaplane. Small boats and planes may have to make multiple journeys. After picking up the survivors, they could either be brought back to a harbour or other AI vessel for a xp and sl reward according for the amount saved; or they could give the players’ ship additional crew per-centage. The exact reward or effect is up to the developers to decide on. Like in real life, players may have to look out for submarines still roaming the area. Other variants of this could be picking up shot down air crews from safety buoys (such as the ones used by Germany during the battle of Britain).

  • Large, map specific operations such as amphibious landings for pacific maps, bringing a level of uniqueness like in the old air rb pacific maps for the US and Japan.

  • Objectives slightly upstream in rivers and within smaller, shallower island groups for coastal vessels to complete, with AI or players as enemies

Why this would help the naval game mode:

  • The resulting gameplay will be better suited for the realistic handling and damage mechanics of war thunder ships, in contrast to the arcadey feeling and spotting mechanics of ships in the closest competitor to War Thunder, which also employs the current capture point map set-ups.

  • The mode would make War Thunder far more unique in general, differentiating it from the competition and further embracing the mixed arms aspect which is this games strength.

  • Different ship types will be more effective by being able to often pick fights according to their strengths.

  • The ship types that are currently only available in the WT mobile app, such as modern missile cruisers or submarines could be added far more smoothly as the EC mode makes them easier to balance and less overpowered. Submarines would in turn make ASW ships/planes and destroyers more useful than they are in the current meta.

  • Larger and more modern ships would allow for a full naval BR range to be implemented, allowing planes such as the Tornado IDS mfg and the Shackleton to have a use.

  • Weapons such as depth charges and mines would suddenly become vital assets to secure a win. Mines could be laid before a convoy or to secure capture points such as harbors while depth charges can be used against submarines like in the “battle of the atlantic” event.

The new mode could be implemented as the simulator mode for naval to test the community response. I also recommend lowering the research costs a lot as they too make naval very unenjoyable right now.

(Note: I posted this post in a more fitting forum category before, but it has been pending there for weeks now, leading me to the conclusion that very specific section of the forum has been abandoned by the moderators, meaning my post would never see the light of day there)

7 Likes

+1 EC RB as a more permanent fixture would have me playing naval ALOT more.

Even with current naval EC, it would be nice if we could select a match to join similar to how sim mode match selection works.

6 Likes

Agreed!

Plus I actually don’t think they need to change any mechanics for sim mode to make stuff harder. After all, real captains also didn’t have to do everything themselves. So in my opinion sim mode really is the best way to implement this mode if gaijin listens.

And they really should. WT naval has far too much potential to just leave it by the wayside.

+10000000 i agree with everything here. but i dont know what would be a good/fun substitute for an objective if it isnt an area capture, maybe have map edge based zones to allow further spawning of player ships and ai, which could then be countered by planes/subs etc etc.

Rescuing sunken ship sailors for a bonus would be so GOATED you have no idea, i could finally use the sunderland for a real purpose now.

Other planes/boats/the shackleton a having a modelled ship/submarine radar would also make it quite useful, although iirc its missing torpedo ordnance (and if it works we could also get the upgrade with 2 turboprops)

Wider river/archipelago areas would give coastal boats a niche too, so i support that wholeheartedly

HOWEVER, i think you left out some key parts thought that i would also love to see:
SEARCHLIGHTS, pretty self explanatory, a toggle option (in case you wanna be stealthy) could allow dawn/dusk/night battles in ships at the cost of no visual on a plane/boat

SHIP RADARS, for ships to search for other ships/submarines and for ships to search for airplanes, having this functionality would allo british ships to finally get some love, id also love if HACS was introduced too (im looking at you, dido)

FLARES, also night battle oriented, your ship (and select planes) would have a flare option, which would illuminate an area like 7.0-8.0 ground night battles does, this would help allies in knowing who needs help, but it would also be used to help reveal enemies (if dropped by a plane over an enemy, being the planes version of scouting like in grb)

HORNS, moreso as QOL so i could signal to my tunnel visioned teammate to not crash into me even if its limited to 10 seconds of horn per minute, it will serve good enough

and of course, the actual improvement of current game mechanics, like large gun accuracy being atrocious, so for coastal bombardment to work out youd need that to be fixed, of course 15-16inch gun HE would also be handy
sea mines to not have a 5 minute lifetime would also be great, as 5 mins is just… nothing, actually nothing in naval so if they could stick around more/permanently also would be great.

a while back i was also thinking of something like this, but i just kinda simplified it and said “what if you combined air EC with naval EC” so naval aircraft could have their time in the spotlight, but if this naval ec you propose allows for air players to also have a spot then im even more in support.

2 Likes

Hard no. Absolutely not. Naval RB is my favourite mode, and I absolutely under no circumstances would want to see it replaced with some PvE based thing.

I mean really, for as much effort has been put into this suggestion, it’s basically “I want to not run into enemy players and fight AI”, that’s the end result. In reality, AI (and cap objectives) exist purely to force players into contact with each other, as PvP is the purpose of the game.

 

The only thing I agree with is needing a bit more space between ships at spawn, to allow proper manoeuvring.

i feel like you mightve missed this part

1 Like

Huh, you must be the one player masochistic enough to like the current situation…

Also if you read more closely, PVP is still the main factor, the AI is just there to spice up things and make objectives more dynamic…

1 Like

Yeah, good points!

I fully agree that it’ll be lovely to see the anti submarine/ recon/ rescue planes finally get their historical capabilities.

Searchlights would also be really cool, but since gaijin does not want to give them to tanks or planes either, we will likely have to wait a long time for those.

As for ship radars I also fully agree. Those will likely come along with the addition of more modern warships to the game.

The flares are a cool idea too and easy to implement. I played a bit of steel ocean back when the game still existed, where those were a useful mechanic, so I can see them working well in WT as well. I’m all for historical spotting mechanics!

I only didn’t mention the horns as that wasn’t exactly something tied to the gamemode idea, but YES PLEASE! Too often do I get rammed by oblivious people in the aiming view. Here they can basically copy how the close competitor that shall not be named does it ^^

The gun accoracy itself is fine as is, but some ships have a huge gap between where the main and secondary guns impact which sucks.

As for sea mines… yeah currently they are more than useless, and removing the timer is a must imo.

And yup, as gaijin seems to only want planes to have their own mode, I want to make very sure that here the planes are implemented in as sensible a manner as possible. I also wouldn’t mind torpedobombers getting AI squad mates like in the singleplayer campaigns. Some large ships are just unapproachable if there’s only one plane

1 Like

People enjoy different things, which seems a surprise to some people.

 

In general FPS terms (which includes WT) objectives exist purely as points of interest to which players are drawn, forcing player interaction. In other words, they’re there because often in pure TDM people just “camp in corners” or otherwise don’t take the initiative to move, because there’s nothing motivating them to; defence inherently will have the advantage after all.

EC-like suggestions such as this turn the game into “PvE, but with some PvP that happens to occur sometimes”, which is something else entirely. In game design terms, it flips the priority on its head.

 

But sure, I’ll look through some of these more closely.

Spoiler

Subs specifically would be fine dropped directly into the current mode with no changes. Using their real world stats (as WT does, unlike WoW / WT Mobile) they would fill a needed rock-paper-scissors hole perfectly.

 

Taking large ships into island areas is incredibly fun, and I do it as much as I can. Cruisers in particular do well with this; I just finished a match on North Port (one of my very favourite maps) running my Helena through the middle cap and getting into a bunch of amusing brawls.

 

…what BR would this be?

 

Sure, mines are a bit of a meme, but even in an EC setting it’d be difficult to make them any more than that. Not to mention, if you’re trying to make ships spawn further apart (etc) it’s going to make mines even less likely to be useful.

Depth charges will be useful, even essential, as soon as we get subs, which is hopefully soon.

 

Ships are slow. Moving spawns further away is only going to make meaningfully engaging the enemy take longer and less actual combat happen in a match. I’d definitely support more cover for reduced line of sight between spawns (and other areas) though.

 

Naval needs fewer AI-controlled things killing players, not more. We already have convoy bots, named not-player bots, and AI-controlled gunners that murder any aircraft/boat which dares exist.

 

Such as massive list of AI-based things that have nothing to do with players fighting each other.

It’s a yes from me for the most part but I think they should allow from 1.0 vessels back into the mode as atm from 1.0 to 3.0 are restricted from being used currently (the first three NF EC tests were in AB with vessels from 1.0 to then 5.7) & tbh some of the best sub 3.0’s would be perfect for EC were they wouldn’t suffer as much as the main mode (as seen by your spawn to spawn point).

I do however see Bleedinguranium’s point & maybe the NF EC mode should just have a two day more extension over the current two day time & both modes can be played.

Also AI can go off themselves but AI bomber wings were tested years back an the only drawback is well ships with inadequate AA defence being attacked by a formation of bombers.

3 Likes

Sounds great. I have zero issue with alternate options, lots of people (in both Naval and Air, maybe even Ground if we had it) seem to prefer EC-style modes. But I absolutely would be against replacing current standard modes with them.

1 Like

it’s not like I don’t like your ideas, but let’s be honest: this would immediately become a grind fest with people ignoring each other to farm bot, ground targets and so on.
Again, I like most of the ideas. What i don’t like is the average war thunder player.

Also, mines will always be useless, no matter what. Mines are strategic weapons, not tactical ones. They do not fit tactical games. If you have the time to plant mines on the path of a convoy, then you have time to gun them down with your main calibers. Easier, faster, you can do that from much further away and no one will take your kills during the approach to the minefield.

Also, I don’t understand how spawning futher aways will lead to more “reasonable travel times”. I agree that spawns are a bit too close rn, but i prefer this ways that cruising for 15 mins without events.

At last, the problem with unbalanced ships will always be there. IRL BB were by far the strongest ships on the sea. The only limits they had were costs, oil consumption and speed. Other ships (cruisers, destroyers) were only build to be able to perform minor tasks (ASW escort, patrol, scout) and to increase sea coveragen (IRL, sea is large. Very, very large. And empty.). We do not have those problems in game and we don’t even need to cover large areas of sea to scout for enemy fleets. There’s nothing you can change to make a DD an opponent for a BB (or even a HC). That’s why the spawn point system need to go, just like in air SIM EC. The only counter to BB is another BB, so just let players spawn in it freely.

1 Like

Yes, please!
Finally, BC/BB will been forced to move from their snipe positions, and players will must deal with historically accurate squadrons of aircraft - not a sole brave souls, spending shitton of points, to spawn on one plane which momentally been a target for all AAA.

Gaijin gib!
This will decentrified gameplay from bases (which been crossfired after first 3 minutes, to bunch of events, where all types of ships can shine.

Perfect targets for destroyers/small fleet.

Yes.
And defence can be various:
Heavy hitting 203mm batteries, quick-firing 152/155mm, or even torpedo turrets.
AA including. (But those coastal fortresses better be very resilient to airstrikes, or all coastal bombardment will be replaced by one carpet bombardment.

Flying boats, and small fleet gain their goals, where they be fittest.
Catalina’s go Black Cats tactics.

1 Like

No offence, but you talking shit.

Just dumb “PvP” - is no less than a voluntary, harmful self-limitation of the game, blocking 3/4 of the capabilities of technology.

If the game must been “pure” PvP, then so many types/classes of equipment would not be needed - those that are highly specialized in destroying their own kind (Destroyers/Fighters/Tank Destroyers) would be enough.

But there are way more classes of vehicles in the game, and if PvEvP allows to use their capabilities to the fullest, this will only be beneficial.
Not to mention the move away from the tired “capture circles” mechanics.

However, if you one of those, who like to sit on a battleship/battle cruiser behind an island at the respawn and shoot those who try perform tasks, your indignation is understandable.

1 Like

Not so.
Some tanks, who have IR searchlights/softkill APS, is have ones (just seen in NVD).

1 Like

Naval EC is still PVP. AI is there just for tasks but you can ignore them. Main advantage of Naval EC is huge map, which fits better if your guns have 10km range.

Btw. Naval RB also have battles with AI convoys…

2 Likes

Dude you need help.

But currently people do exactly that. They camp and kill people moving to the cap points. Or they do as a certain individual with a chinese name did in my last naval match and camp behind islands near the enemy spawn in op fast firing destroyers and kill anyone spawning before they can retaliate. So much is wrong with the current system that I find it amazing that you have the nerve to defend it.

Also no, submarines would not be fine with the current mode, what are you smoking? Who would counter them? The anti sub boats and destroyers that can’t get close enough without getting shredded? In EC this wouldn’t be an issue. I feel like you are trolling and have never actually played a naval match in your life.

Plus yeah, the big ships can do well in the island areas. You seem to be incapable of realizing how unfun it is for small boats who can’t do anything against them. One more reason to make these areas harder to reach for high displacement boats.
And also what do you do if the other zones get capped? You won’t manage to get there in time.

As for what br… you realize the first cruisers are at 5.0 and they can shred most destroyers. Same goes with heavy cruisers vs everything lighter and then battleships vs everything lighter. Again, you seem to never have touched the naval mode if I have to explain the obvious.

Your defense of mines as they are right now is as laughable as everything else you said. Bigger maps allow mine layers to actually get to POIs because they don’t immedeately get hit and die after spawning. Do I also need to explain to you such basic concepts as breathing?
You are such a shill for this stupid cap point mode that you even defend things you yourself have to admit don’t work in any capacity.

Guess what you utter genius: THEY CAN ALSO SHOOT REALLY FAR

Cry more. AI is at least easier and less annoying to kill than the 5th noob in a kronstadt that is showing the enemy his broadside and scoring kills while being still nearly invincible. And also it would be more realistic. And nobody said Naval Battles were are entirely PVP based.

Okay you clown, I will once again explain the obvious: these events will generate points of interests. Those will draw in players. Players that can do PVP there. It’s like a cap point but less stupidly implemented.

You are the kind of person who plays CSGO and exclusively picks dust 2 then screams at their teammates in vc if they don’t have the same map knowledge. You are the exception and not the rule and actively make the game worse.

The player numbers make it obvious that you are very much the minority. Almost nobody likes the current mode, and many that still play it, like me, only do so because they enjoy the concept but hope for a better experience in the future. Your comment hurt my brain…

Plus if you read until the end you’d realize that there could also be a solution with both modes existing. Sure, you know that nobody would like to play the cap point mode if there was an alternative, but that’s your problem then.

Have a nice day

these bomber formations could be restricted to 4.3 and above.

As for low br vessels, some of them could actually become vital vs submarines in EC, so I would absolutely allow them if I were gaijin.

you actually didn’t read my post till the end before foaming out the mouth, amazing

If this is how you respond to polite disagreement, you should probably avoid making gameplay suggestions in the future.

1 Like