In fairness of bluefor spawning aircraft instead of SPAA.
US and UKs ADATS can barely take out anything
Israel doesn’t have a top tier SPAA
Italy only has a weak SPAAG.
Spawning in something like an F-16 instead is probably the better decision. Though not taking out enemy aircraft yeah that’s an issue
Eddie,
I’m not arguing for the removal of CAS by a longshot, anymore than I agree with those who argue for the removal of arty (as you know from that thread).
But let’s perform CAS with CAS aircraft, not “strategic” bombers, or if we’re going to have B-29 CAS (as one example) than let’s up the risk level for all concerned, as was the case if you decided to have that kind of danger close bombing:
For the U.S. 8th Air Force, the average CEP in 1943 was 370 meters (1,200 ft), meaning that only 16% of the bombs fell within 300 meters (1,000 ft) of the aiming point. A 230-kilogram (500 lb) bomb, standard for precision missions after 1943, had a lethal radius of only 18 to 27 meters (60 to 90 ft). By 1945, the 8th was putting up to 60% of its bombs within 300 meters (1,000 ft), a CEP of about 270 meters (900 ft).
It’s telling that air leaders requested U.S. troops pull back 3000 meters (pretty much larger than any ground map in WarThunder) from the bombing line for Operation Cobra in 1944 and that the heavy bombers dropped from between 11000 and 15000 feet.
We should be seeing “Jabos” and not heavies.
And we need a hard-deck for the heavies or an improved (deadlier) anti-air environment for the heavies in particular. The whole SPAAG/SAM/interceptor set-up probably needs a relook, but I’ll stop there for the moment.
How’s this for an idea: Increase SP for aircraft depending on how many players are already flying. That way, the number of players flying is kept a bit lower, without keeping it from happening. (This way, it could be difficult for a team to get as many players flying as currently can happen.)
hush!!!
It’s so easy to kill those them when you got a daily to kill spaas.
All jokes aside, you are 100% correct.
The MIGHT hit, but 99% of the time they are just warning the plane.
Aside from that idea infringing on player’s freedom of choice and being outright biased against aircraft, it would only encourage people to get into aircraft quicker through whatever means necessary. While cap-and-fly is generally a myth nowadays, your idea would encourage similar efforts strictly on the basis of time.
A more sensible idea is to open up players’ freedom of choice with despawn points, SP rebates and Fighters First. Stop trying to restrict players’ freedom and start expanding it–then everyone will be able to do as they wish, as guided by matches’ progression and what yields success.
We had the Battle of the Bulge where famously air support was not available and think of a No CAS GRB variant as that. A GRB Game with no planes seems like a natural move to me in 2024,Tanks/Land based vehicles on their own have become such a big deal and so many people want War Thunder to be ground based only for the Tank aspect.
Its not anything petty or childish as some kind of "Plane hate " or other bizarre concept.
As for heavy bombing of German Armoured Divisions you can read many accounts of that happening and heavy Bombers took out more German tanks than localized CAS ever did. Try using a heavy bomber in the GRB game, its a lucky dip in many ways and getting X5 kills is no certainty even in a Pe 8 etc.
You have to guess and guess good and getting it wrong with such a big bomb is messy and embarrassing.
The issue there is haw many games you have to play as Russia to even get and grind the Pe8 (same with any big bomb for any nation) so many wont know about the issues of using one,they will just be on the receiving end of something extremely unfair until they too get such a plane like the Pe 8 ,He 111 or Lancaster etc
My take is that if you advocate ,support enjoy CAS/Combines arms then you except all that is wrong with it and that is fine.You give and you take in equal measure but don’t keep asking about how you can dial it back when it was made to do in the game what it does in reality.
We have big SP cost already ,we have SPAA already ,CAS is a finished article and if its not making you happy then leave the game .If we want a positive ,stay in the game solution’s then let us all jump out and enjoy the No CAS GRB version of the game which we need.
Dont be looking for Balance when talking CAS because CAS is using a hammer to crack a walnut, its playing the aerial advantage and that is more pronounced in the more modern era.Tank busting helicopters or the A10 etc are made to devastate tanks but how hard did the player base beg for them in the game.They are begging for submarines as we speak in Naval ,demanding a huge rod for their own back in a ship based game.
I’ll laugh so hard when the "How do we balance subs " thread finally arrives.
If you want a break form CAS or want to enjoy a game without being hit by a bomber or A10 you wont even see then why not allow players to have that option?
I feel like a stuck record but that is because nobody seems to take a thing form what is being written on here either by myself or anybody else asking for a TO Version of GRB
Sorry for the long winded diatribe brother : )
I belive people are just arguing for the sake of it most of the time.
People who like combined gameplay won’t be affected by TO and need to balance things out between ground and air while people who just want to play ground, will also be happy.
It is just a win-win for everybody.
Queue times:
Plus like… are you making TO for only GRB? For all modes?
Hahahahahahahahaha
I just don’t get how it’s not. It’s a huge positive move for Gaijin most of all. It’s not just about competition form WoT it’s about competition from any other tank game either in existence or about to be created in the future.
Combined arms is fine but its not even a dedicated tank game yet still its recognized as the best tank game around. Jump onto a discussion about tank games on other sites and its all "The best game? War Thunder by a mile if they lost those ******* planes " followed by agreement after agreement. So many extra players are there for the taking.
Its like the best boxer around fighting with one arm tied behind his back you and I are simply asking to untie the other arm and let WT compete in a straight out fight with all the other tank games. No silly planes screwing it all up.
How many players move to War Thunder excited that the planes have gone? If queue times bother CAS fanatics then they need worry any longer if a million WoT players jump across.
The other thing it does is no more nerfing for CAS no ore bulls**t balancing discussions,no messing with SPAA CAS etc.
You dont like the planes then you don’t have to leave the game ,the game can accommodate you.
LOL! “infringing on player’s freedom of choice”! You don’t want them to add a mode for just tanks, but any effort at all to ease the overload of the airraid mode, and you bring that argument out again. I’d say you don’t want to have to work for a game, so you want to keep the status quo. Even with the SPAAs being boosted, (I’ve 1-hit killed several time while trying to spade SPAAs, this last week, and been 1-hit killed several times as well while flying) I still score better if I fly for my second spawn than I ever do by spawning SPAA and shooting at planes.
Nobody needs to grind aircraft to play Arcade mode ground combat. GFRB pretty much requires you to grind aircraft, so this is the mode that most needs a tanks-only option. SIM mode is at least attempted to be balanced, as they’re picking the allowed vehicles each time.
Setting up arbitrary barriers to restrict players’ freedom of choice is wrong and it’s certainly not funny. That proposal is one designed to punish players and deprive them of their earned (potential) access.
To raise aircraft costs SP costs capriciously for no reason except personal inclination is anti-aircraft bias. You don’t see that being done to GFs at the match start even though it’s the exact same scenario.
lmao
I’ve done all I can to help TO move forward–I cannot help that it has spun its wheels.
I don’t have any particular difficulty with things as-is (besides the variable of teams)…so I’m not sure what you’re trying to get at.
I’m not a big cheerleader of the status quo (I routinely laugh at balance problems, BRs, etc) but you don’t see me pouting about WT being WT either. All in all, I’m pretty moderate.
Not sure what you mean about a boost to SPAAs…as for the rest, experiences vary (see @JuicyKuuuuki ).
Spawning CAP can remain the current cost.
Spawning CAS should have its SP scale with its payload as a function of BR.
Ergo - a 500 lbs bomb at 4.0 is gonna be way more devastating than at BR 6.0, so at 4.0 it should cost more. Also 3x 500 lbs is better than 1x 1000 lbs as you can take out more targets.
There’d be a lot of balance considerations to be made, but killing potential should go up.
Also, push the airfields back so it takes ~3 minutes to rearm and return over 90 seconds. This should encourage slower planes with more bombs over fast and small fighters dropping 1 bomb, rearming in 90 seconds and returning.
Even Kuuki agrees that the british SPAA is atrocious from 5.3-8.0 (Bosvark)
Limiting the number of aircraft in a battle at any one time isn’t about limiting “player choice”, so much as it is an idea to make a ground battle, rather than an air raid. When planes outnumber tanks, especially when it’s happened on both sides, with nobody in the air fighting each other, DOES make for more of a “Ground Battle”. Please tell me what battle, in all of WWII, had planes outnumber tanks in a tactical fight. (I will gleefully wait!)
Just because “realistic mode” doesn’t mean “realistic” in every sense of the word doesn’t mean it could not be made more realistic than it currently is.
Operation Overlord. (1944)
290 tanks vs about 12’000 aircraft were used by the allies to take the beaches of Normandy
(air superiority was profound after D-Day for the allies and aided greatly in their advance across Europe, especially as they captured or constructed FoBs, so id add onto this, tenatively, every single battle in Europe after June 1944, at least for the allies. Though I think the soviets also enjoyed a fairly solid air superiority as well)
Second battle of el Alamein. (1942)
The allies had around 900 aircraft and 547 tanks. the Germans had around 1000 tanks and 750 aircraft (so thats about 1700 aircraft and about 1500 tanks)
Aircraft proved highly effective during most of the North Africa campaign, so I wouldnt be surprised if multiple battles in North Africa involed equal or greater numbers of aircraft compared to tanks.
Battle of Kursk (1943)
At the battle of Kursk, whilst tanks did outnumber aircraft, it wasnt by that much, around 6000 tanks vs around 4000-5000 aircraft.
(also, kinda feels like cheating but not many tanks were used in the Battle of Britain during the Blitz :P )
Operation Overloard used the planes mostly for pre-bombardment and bombardment. I don’t think they were “on call” for troops to summon to blast anything “danger close”.
Second battle of el Alamein used planes for interdiction against troop movements and supply chains, as well as bombardment and pre-bombardment. Not so much for bombing tanks while tanks were fighting tanks.
I’m typing more about planes entering into combat with ground forces that were fighting each other WHILE they’re fighting each other. For that, you need to look more to sloppy battles such as Kursk, but even then I’m thinking they were being used for the same purposes listed above, as opposed to being directed CAS, called in to fight targets that are close to friendly troops.
Now, there weren’t ground combats in the Blitz, aside from rounding up this or that German pilots that hit their parachutes as their planes went down. I don’t remember reading where they ever needed any tanks for that.
Specically for aircraft called in for “CAS”. Then id argue any engagement after D-Day in Western Europe. Aircraft like the P-47, Typhoon and Mosquitto were often called upon to provide close air support. Though communication was of course much harder back then and weapon accuracies were of course far more limited.
For example, I think P-47s proved highly vital providing close air support during the battle of the bulge.
In January 1945, with the Germans retreating desperately from the Bulge, 1st Lt. Robert V. Brulle operated from K-29 airfield in Belgium and flew low-level sorties over the front lines. “You would have an Army guy in a Sherman tank talking to you on the radio,” Brulle remembered in a telephone interview. “When you appeared overhead, he would say something like, ‘We need you to bomb the Germantank hiding behind the little farmhouse with the red roof.’ The problem for us, overhead in our Thunderbolts, was that we could see dozens of farmhouses with red roofs. To pinpoint the enemy, we needed somebody directing our flying who spoke our language.”
So, fighter pilots like Brulle began rotating to the front, joining American ground troops and directing their fellow Thunderbolt flyers. “We would be talking to somebody we knew. We could say something like, ‘Turn right at the S-turn in the river, head up the two-lane road going 15 degrees northeast, and bomb the German tank behind the third farmhouse on the east side of the road.’” That, as it turned out, worked. Source
But I would be reasonably confident to say that aircraft did provide a pivitol role in most major land battles in WW2, perticuraly after the Luftwaffe was greatly diminished in the later years of the war.
If we try to apply a “real world” context to war thunder. Then I would consider the spawn point to be the “convoy” of troops/vehicles coming to the battlefield. So aircraft attacking and intercepting that “convoy” before it could actually enter the main battle to be highly accurate. Something akin to this account during the battle of the Bulge:
When the squadron had swept the road clean of German vehicles, Motzenbecker led his flight up and down the wooded side roads. What began as a chance encounter grew into a marathon air-ground battle that went on and on.
Spotting a platoon of tanks under the foliage, the Hell Hawks dive-bombed the panzers until they disappeared in a boiling cloud of smoke. The next pass revealed several tanks blown completely over, on fire and smoking. But the Germans fought back with a vengeance, streaking the sky with an intense barrage of 20mm flak. One of the 387th’s newer pilots, 2nd Lt. John D. McCarthy, was caught in the web of cannon shells. His aircraft exploded and crashed just yards from the road. The native of Canandaigua, NY, had been with the squadron barely a month.
By the time the daylong fight near Monschau was over, Major Motzenbecker’s squadron, joined by the rest of the Hell Hawks’ 365th Fighter Group, had played havoc with the German column. More than 115 German vehicles and artillery pieces were verified as destroyed, another 65 completely wrecked or damaged, and an unknown number of troops put out of action. The Thunderbolt pilots had lost two of their own to the storm of flak put up by the convoys.
The running battle had blunted the impact of that particular German column, but Hitler’s final counterattack moved forward elsewhere along the front. Unfortunately, bad weather the next day, December 18, kept most P-47s on the ground—but not all. - Source
Now, dont get me wrong. I think GRB needs an SP overhaul and SPAA needs a buff. (read the first comment on this thread for some slightly outdated, but for the most part solid account of my opinions on the CAS situation)
But I do think CAS adds to the historical accuracy and immersion in game. Watching aircraft come in and do this is always satisfying to me:
But I dont consider it “unrealistic” to have aircraft at any BR providing close air support
Imagine if one day Gaijin decided to create a new tank-only mode, leading to the decline of combined battles with long queue times. That would be the biggest disappointment for this game and would promote the most noob-like gameplay ever.
Killing a game mode just because some players don’t know how to counter CAS, or because they’re too lazy to learn, or because they don’t want to play effectively with planes or SPAAs, or because they dont know how to play like a team; this is incredibly selfish. I hope this new gameplay doesn’t ruin the existing mode, but if it does, I’d prefer to leave the game and I won’t spend another cent again.
It feels like World of Tanks players have discovered War Thunder and want to change it. I don’t see War Thunder players in WoT forums asking for WoT to become like War Thunder. I’m here because this has already happened with the maps; they now resemble WoT maps—no snipe zones, everything is small, and there are no flanking opportunities,It’s ridiculous. And now they want to change the game mode as well.
Gaijin should give extra bonuses for players who kill planes and helicopters in GRB matches. Maybe then these noob-like players will stop crying about it in this forum and actually learn how to play with more than just tanks.