If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

The only angry one is You at the moment as You can’t understand that without TO any changes for better combined gameplay won’t happen

As I have said before, man.

It does not directly solve any of the issues pertaining to CAS. Its sole function is a set of blinders to enable certain people to ignore it.

If it helps reform CAS at all, its at best very indirect.

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It takes away who wants to just play tanks and with that many things would solve itself and changes could be made

Malicious?

Are you serious?

How are my reasons malicious?

“Hey let’s give WT SB a chance to heal by cutting out the cancer” is exactly malicious how?

It’s a win-win situation. TO players get their RB mode and SB will no longer be abused as an anti plane mode.

Which isn’t a bad thing in itself if a game evolves.
It gives it the chance to become better.

Not much benefit?

Are you serious? Having a proper sim and having quality tanks is a huge benefit. You are incapable of looking at the bigger picture.

Complaining that was only necessary because of RB nit having a TO mode. Mixed RB is hurting sim by your own admission. RB is not worth existing if it ruins sim. So let it help sim by existing in another state.

What anger?

A doctor cutting out cancer isn’t angry either.

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This. Only a couple days ago some 47% WR dude that got clapped on the ground like nobody’s business spawned in his F-16 and through guided ordinance magic got 6 verrrrry difficult kills ( /s ) just like that. Eventually he got taken out, respawned on the ground only to die again doing nothing good… This is really [Insert that other tank game name]'s artillery class but with thermal view, guided weaponry and no RNG at top tier. Unless my team has a competent (and willing !) CAP player aboard but I have zero control over that. And if I want to play actual tanks and objectives, why should I be forced into playing SPAAs or fighters ? Only to counter (very inefficiently at lower BRs) a bad mechanic and waste SP again if I want to go back to playing objectives again ?

The maps and general gameplay are not fit for these mixed battles. Gaijin going realistic specs on weapon ranges on post stamp sized maps and microscopic cap circles is an abyssal gameplay choice. I’m not against the general idea of combined arms in video games at all but the way it’s implemented in War Thunder’s GRB has been bad for the longest time.

As some others have mentionned : if only SPAAs were more versatile, had proper antitank ordinance and spawning one to counter planes didn’t outright force you to ignore the mechanics of victory/objectives (except for a few very competent vehicles).

Edit : slightly unrelated but has anyone addressed the elephant in the room of why GRB has different nations fight each other and not just a purely mixed mode like arcade ? It’s not like we need to be able to identify anything correctly in RB : if it has no marker over its head, just shoot at it. I don’t give a rat’s ass what nation it’s from. It would improve the problem of one team having, say, both SM3s and Pantsirs and the other not among many other things… Also “USA = loss” won’t result in as many one-death leavers.

You told me before that “you wanted TO so WT SB could die and be replaced by a proper Sim mode” in another thread, hence what I was basing that on.

As much as I don’t care for supporters of such a mode due to their history in the game and what that history caused, I’d be fine to experiment with their little pet project, but only after the actual causes of CAS’s problems are resolved.

Whether ULQ wants to admit it or not, his mode doesn’t solve what ails CAS - it only allows people to ignore the problem at best. At worst it forces the snail’s hand by igniting a queue emergency in the combined mode, which might lead to “fixes” for CAS, but also would lead undoubtedly to a veiled form of payback later down the line (akin to the Parts & FPE firestorm followed not too long after by forced stock HEATFS in high tiers, you can’t convince me those aren’t related).

All you are looking at it as is a place to exile people you don’t like. The mode itself has no real benefit, and never will.

I was referring to Air Sim EC, where weapon nerfs meant to service the cries of TO folk resulted in Light Pillboxes and AI tanks being nigh-unkillable.

The solution is to force-feed those stubborn individuals the counters, and make those counters so easy to use that they have no excuse to complain.

If your solution is to cut out the cancer, then mine is injecting chemotherapy to make surgery unnecessary.

What I have been proposing would make the counters both more available and more efficient, as well as guaranteeing that everyone has them even if they forget/refuse to bring their own from the hangar.

Simulator’s SP system already allows this - 1000SP per player at match start, no “earnings.” Theoretically any CAS load can be a first spawn, but so can the CAP to kill that CAS. No different really to countering a team full of heavy tanks with a bunch of light tanks/artillery that can carelessly punch on through.

Copying over and extending Naval’s idea of giving every user default planes in their deck, also extending that to default SPAAG/SAMs, with preset ordinance loads and free repairs, would give even the most stubborn individual no excuse to at least try countering CAS.

Removing old nerfs to SPAAG and SAMs, as well as adding new things to make them no longer so inefficient, would make SPAAG quite entertaining to play. Bringing back full APCR/APDS belts, removing stupid tiny shell limits on APDS/APFSDS rounds, making SAMs not fuse on incoming missiles/rockets, allowing manual SAM launch so a SAM can defend itself vs tanks and thus be incentivized to not sit uselessly in spawn, and plenty of other things.

Making maps and objectives to properly suit combined arms play, let alone at high tiers where engagement ranges exponentially increase, is a whole other topic.

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May be necessary to keep so they can be intercepted imo.

Are there any real examples of incoming air-to-ground unguided ordinance causing SAMs to prematurely trigger? I know that there are specialized interceptor missiles to shoot down incoming ordinance - my whole reasoning here is to remove the idiotic ability of helicopters to rocket-wall away incoming SAMs or out-spam a SAM to death (a Ka-50 firing 10 Vkhirs to overwhelm a SAM with 8 ready-to-launch missiles between reloads always ends in the SAM’s death unless the SAM outspeeds the Vkhir).

Idk lol

And how was that malicious? again, kill cancer to save the patient, isn’t malicious. I don’t want to harm the game.

Are you delusional?

I have no dislike for them. I can understand their frustration. I want to take away their exile and give them a proper home, where they belong. How bad of me… you are completely off the rails.

What i dislike is the implementation of tanks by Gaijin… i don’t dislike the people playing them in SIM, it’s not their fault.

Are you sure you aren’t projecting here?

It hurts both. But i don’t see how this invalidates my point.

Are you sure, you aren’t the hateful one?
They aren’t stubborn they just have a different idea on what they want to play. And forcing people against their will is never a good idea. Sacrificing for this ego trip is nonsense.

They very much have grounds to complain.

You are actively hindering it though. There will always be people that don’t want planes in their games and those will automatically gravitate to GSB, giving the impression GSB is fine… which hinders the necessary change. You will not save GSB into a sim this way. You are the stubborn one.

If you were right nerfs to CAS would have worked, they didn’t.

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The problem with that is that naval doesn’t cost SP to spawn ships, so pulling a plane has zero impact on you ability to spawn ships, in ground everything costs SP so you will risk losing you ability to continue in the ground battle if you pull a plane. Additionally players that don’t have planes in their line up already likely don’t have the skill or even the key binds set to fly effectively at top tier. How do you think someone that has never flown, or only flown props before will handle spawning in a F-16 or MiG-29? They will get slapped instantly by a SAM or another plane, lose most of their SP and leave the match.
Additionally, why tank players should be forced to fly plane? How about we make it so air modes require you to first drive out a tank and farm SP to pull your first plane, or spawn S-400s and Patriots all over the map turning it into a no fly zone until your team drives out in ground vehicles and destroys them? You like that idea? No? You don’t want to be forced to play ground in air battles? Well guess what that is EXACTLY what you are insisting tank players do!
Oh, and all the time you spend in a plane, you are getting AIR RESEARCH points, not ground, so its a COMPLETE waste of time for ground players.

I would allow them to first Spawn fully loaded, while preventing op SPAA like Pantsir from spawning at the match start or too early.

It actually is “their fault,” tbfh. Instead of attempting to focus on and find areas of broader agreement towards altering certain obnoxious mechanics (for example, the kill camera that is the major driver of revenge bombing), they full-commit to the fringe idea of “needing” a separate game mode w/o CAS. Except for ULQ specifically, most other supporters of the idea only suggest it when they’re angry at dying to CAS, and thus don’t think much (if at all) about the consequences of their mode idea. That is why I do not support adding such a mode before fixing CAS’s actual implementation issues.

Their exile is self-imposed. They aren’t incapable of countering it, they just choose not to learn what does work, since complaining here is easier than taking the time to learn something new.

I have no sympathy for the folk whose refusal to adapt near-totally ruined what I was minding my own business enjoying in Air RB & Air Sim in years prior. I paid the price for their stubbornness.

Having a different idea on what you want to play is not inherently bad - throwing a massive sxxx-fit and ruining large swathes of entirely unrelated game modes when you’re told “no” IS.

I will always be of the viewpoint that, for the sake of gameplay, nerfing anything should be an absolute last resort. Especially in a game like this where a given gun/shell/ordinance may be used very differently in multiple totally separate game modes.

Buffing counters should be the first option. Yet historically snail has overreacted to complaints from TO folk and jumped to nerf stuff first because its somewhat easier to implement as a quick painkiller.

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That’s not how the world works. They want a shooter without CAS(!) they still want a shooter. And that is fine give them their tank shooter.

Even without revenge bombing the feeling of helplessness will not go away. And that is a driving factor.

That’s BS. They just don’t want to use the counters because that is not what they enjoy.

So it is anger…

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My point is merely to give such folk the tools they need to help themselves. They decide if they wish to learn to use said tools or not. I do think every machine, unlocked or not, should be available for test drive so that anyone can begin to get a feel for a machine they are curious about.

I am not outright forcing them to use planes - I am removing their excuses to complain why CAS is “overpowered” besides their own refusal to learn, by giving them the tools to help themselves with. It punts the ball firmly into their court. They can choose to hit it back and learn the tools, throw a fit and complain (now 100% uselessly), or leave the game.

I have no sympathy for the folk whose history of throwing fits when they don’t get what they want ruined what I was minding my own business enjoying in those Air modes in years prior before I even touched tanks. Because they threw the first punch, so to speak, they do not deserve their nirvana mode.

At best I will never support the idea before addressing what actually ails CAS mechanically. If all of those actual cures get implemented, I would no longer care whether TO becomes a thing or not.

Most people who support the idea of TO are too filled with rage and frustration to think clearly about what is going on. They rarely if ever stop to consider the other side of the equation, let alone other game modes and how those may be contributing to the CAS dilemma or be affected by their proposals. Such folk are so angry at CAS, so convinced of it being “overpowered” that they fail to recognize how stuck CAS is, too. It is limited to being a dumb powerup ripped out of CoD, it’s encouraged to be abused by BS mechanics, its intended counters are forced to fight with both hands tied behind their back and a blindfold on, and it has none of its actual objectives to go kill and thus is forced to either be useless or make itself the biggest pain in the xxx possible.

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You haven’t changed a bit MH4UAstragon, no matter how You want to portray it.

You just don’t want TO to happen for the sake of it, no real actual reasons. No matter what You propose it leads to the same and won’t change a bit for people who want to just play tanks.

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Then they picked the wrong game and need to stop falling into the sunk cost fallacy. Whole other games, particularly GHPC, were made specifically to answer calls for a soft-realism tank sim without player-controlled CAS. Multiplayer for that one is under development.

To an extent, yes. It’s equivalent to two people fighting in a dusty street, things escalate, one of them picks up a piece of furniture and throws it at the other. It misses, and hits me, permanently disfiguring me. Why would I NOT be angry at whoever threw the chair, whether they intended to hit me or not?

Ye, so there is no point in having a real discussion with You.

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And yet, my view has softened a little over time.

I truthfully wouldn’t care whether TO became a thing after the real issues plaguing CAS are dealt with. Because only then would we see how much actual support the idea has without rage and frustration mainly at revenge bombing fueling it.

All people do grow and change with time. Time does heal all wounds.