And the argument is gone because the introduction of FF doesn’t change anything when it comes to the problem described by people playing tanks. It just makes the issue even worse for ground players.
In naval it works because naval has AI AA.
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It does actually change the nature of the problem.
No more cap & fly nonsense, first of all. No team is capable of “rushing” to CAS before the other team can think to field counters to it. If not a single person on your team thinks to spawn a plane, then your team deserves the air raid it gets.
Even then, 8/10 air raid games usually end in favor of the team with more treads in the mud due to caps being overrun. At least that’s my experience.
Nah, that is hardly why it “works.” It looks to me like default planes were given specifically to quash all talk of “naval only mode,” which it accomplished quite well.
The intent of default planes in Combined Ground is simple - removal of “tank only players.” They no longer exist unless they choose to ignore the tools to help themselves.
For people driving a tank it doesn’t.
Then, at most B.R. they die to clean fighters who could spawn from the beginning, not to mention airspawn/airfield being blocked.
Again, nothing gets changed for people wanting to play tanks. The problem becomes even bigger for them.
As long as You want to lie about it being a solution for this people, sure.
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Then they can learn more than just BUT MUH TONK!
It goes without saying that planes should runway spawn.
You can’t please everybody. More people want to use aircraft than not, plenty of other games offer exclusive tank combat without air interference.
Naval-style default planes solve the ability of TO players to complain about being “helpless” by making them no longer helpless. It removes them as a problem. Because their incessant crying is the problem fueling much of the CAS debate.
As long as Your ‘solution’ for people wanting to play ‘tanks’ is to play something else, it is not a solution.
As long as You can’t understand it, we will have more nerfs/buffs that only makes people mad. I know that You don’t want TO to be added because ‘hate’ reasons, but it is the only solution that would allow for combined mode to change and become better.
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I see the mere existence of TO players as THE problem. A game mode claiming to be combined arms should not allow people to enter into it without half of the expected vehicle types. Doing so only allows said people to play victim and cry how “helpless” they supposedly are.
Instead, it’s long overdue for WT to fully embrace combined arms by utterly deleting TO players from existence, quietly.
Drag the horse to water, shove its snout into the water to make it drink. Then if the horse still refuses to drink and dies of thirst, it’s its own damn fault.
And that is what makes You unable to understand the problem.
Thanks for proving that there is no point in having a discussion with You about said topic as You don’t want a solution but rather something else.
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It’s because TO does nothing to solve the problems with how CAS works. It does not address revenge bombing. It does not address SPAA being lackluster. It does not address the unbalanceable powerup nature of aircraft. It does not address anything.
All it does is enable people to ignore the problem.
You guys made yourselves a nuisance years ago. You should get what you deserve as punishment for that, plain and simple.
You also do not seem to understand that if the devs caved to your particular exclusionist sect, that suddenly several others would crawl out of the woodwork chanting for their “mode without X.” The fact that you are so convinced TO is the second coming and completely ignore the very real Pandora’s Box nature of the underlying concept is shocking.
It takes all the people who just want to play tanks out of the question.
Preatty simple fix and changes a lot.
Cope.
Thanks again for proving that You don’t want any good change but rather a ‘solution’ that will only give You a tool to say ‘YOU ALREADY HAVE THAT YOU CAN’T HAVE TO NOW!!!’.
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Nope. Only divides the playerbase, and breaks several maps in the process. Not like you’d even begin to understand the view from that of a newer player.
Your whining caused repeated gutting of aircraft in every single game mode. Every time they got gutted, you asked for still more. After seeing this repeatedly, I realized that TO players are the actual problem. Every single CAS nerf, “justified” or not, was also blanket-applied to game modes without player tanks, when those modes did nothing to deserve such.
Removing TO players stops that cycle, by making TO players no longer helpless victims.
Sure, I bet you personally will never stop trying to ask for it and be a nuisance in every single CAS thread. But such changes will ensure your little “movement” stops gaining new recruits, causing your support to gradually wither on the vine until you’re alone.
The only thing dividing it is lack of such a mode.
Maps doesn’t need change.
Let me guess, not adding a TO as people wanted and providing changes no one asked for made things worse for everybody? Like I said and still saying?
Who would have guessed that You are still trying to do the same thing.
As I have said, You are just angry about what Gaijin have done and about what no one asked for and can’t think properly. Not to mention the attitude of ‘game bad for me, must be bad for You’!
But I don’t suspect nothing from MH4UAstragon who on old forum was the same ;) (not to mention that Your ‘solutions’ were discussed on old forum and already proven wrong, same goes for discord).
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Squadron Battles function like this - sounds great in theory, in reality you get first spawn Pe8s, Tu2s, and Arado 234s rushing at spawn.
Actually, it does - no CAS, no problems.
And since they’d have their own mode, the “combined arms” mode can be changed at will to the whims of people wanting to destroy targets that can’t do shit to them.
Hey remember when gaijin made Air RB midmap AA kill anything that got within 3km of it?
According to you, Air RB players should just have queued up in ground attackers and dealt with it themselves instead of asking gaijin to fix an obviously problematic and unfun feature.
arcade/realistic/simulator, enough said
Yep which is why the Lancaster got a shiny new 12000lb bomb and the Pe8’s BR hasn’t moved an inch in years.
Which they deserve, because aircraft are fundamentally unbalanced.
If I’m in say, a 190 F8, an already not great attacker, I can easily bomb tanks and shoot down just about anything that flies. I don’t need to J out and switch to another vehicle to do either of those things.
If I’m in a tank and I want to shoot down someone because they might bomb me, I need to:
-J out and throw away my tank;
-spawn an SPAA;
-maybe shoot him down, maybe die to him because open tops and bomb/rocket overpressure (but let’s assume I succeed);
-J out and throw away my SPAA because SPAAs are not tanks and they both can’t and SHOULD NOT fulfill the same role as a tank, just so I can influence the ground battle positively.
Clearly there’s an imbalance here and there’s no amount of SPAAs getting HVAP (and subsequently getting overtiered for it) or first spawn aircraft that is gonna fix it.
You highlight the point nicely.
A team of random players all hoping to play using the vehicles they need to work with in order to advance their trees or grinding goals cannot happen. They must consider abandoning the play style they prefer and their choice of vehicle. Simply put, they must all abandon their personal needs and preferences to launch aircraft and SPAAs. In other words, the match just became an air/anti-air battle with a few tanks for to give the planes something to kill for points. It became Air AB.
- How are you going to manage a team of complete strangers who have come together for a 15 minute match to make them do only what you think they should do?
- How does this remain as a game where you can enjoy playing the vehicles you like while a single unknown individual is ordering everyone to play only the vehicles they deem correct for the team?
- How does a person who is only playing the game for tanks advance their tree if other random players won’t let them play the vehicles they need to play in order to advance? Perhaps you feel tanks are a secondary part of the game and tankers should leave and go to World of Tanks.
And Finally… - How do you get the random team of strangers to do all of these things without attacking their choices and making them do what they don’t want to?
As I said, you highlight the point very nicely. Planes force the battle to become an air/Anti-air battle. I know War Thunder started as a flight game and it seems its trying to feed into its flight family here more than trying to keep to the nature of the battle type. I’m new so I’ve never tried launching a tank or an SPAA in Air RB/AB like you can launch planes in Ground RB/AB. I should try that. If I can’t, I know the flight game play is the focus here and I’m in the wrong game.
I see your idea being meaningful in a squad vs squad type of game play and perhaps that’s the answer. Vehicle specific game play for grinding and those who just want the one type and the complete mix for squads where vehicle use can be ordered or mandated.
Either way, You’re right, if your going to add planes to Ground battles, you might as well call it air because, to your point, you HAVE TO have air suppression or the tanks just become free RP for the pilots while the tank players just get repair bills.
P.S. Earlier in this thread I raised the concern that pilots in Ground battles received Tank RP. A respondent indicated this wasn’t true. I just watched the “Ground Vehicles” Tutorial on the War Thunder site in the Tutorials section where it seemed to indicate that planes used in Ground battles only receive tank RP. Either I’ve misunderstood something or perhaps the game has changed since that tutorial video was posted. There is a third possibility of course…
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In AB you get tank RP from CAS, not in RB. Its actually very helpful grinding out stock tank mods tbh.
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Yeah, Thanks for that ZandikarHaven, it also explains what even the Youtube channels are calling the “Rampant” use of aircraft in tank matches. One Youtuber I was watching only had 1 tank in his lineup, the rest of his lineup where all planes.
I’m a RL Private Pilot, was an ACM trainer in AirWarrior III and when that game shut down I followed my squad to Aces High, I have DCS and I’ve done a host of other air combat stuff. I’m even surrounded as I type with Warthog controllers, Pendular paddles, etc. I’ve done flight to death. I was in Armored Warfare with a lot of tanks, tried WoT for a while and then followed some friends here. I’m beginning to realize I’m just points for pilots to help them grind tanks and it saddens me.
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This got me thinking…
If the use of planes in tank battles is a big help to grind out tank RP than it follows one needs WT flight skills to be successful in ground and not tank skills. And if that’s true, then tank ground combat skills that I’ve been told I need to grind out the tank tech tree to learn becomes irrelevant since air is the ideal grinding vehicle for tank RP.
So what is WT incentivizing here? Why would one not simply buy top tier, use it to get a top tier premium jet into tank battles and grind out the tech tree that way? Why am I trying to stick to tanks if tanks are just tank RP for pilots?
If the use of planes in tank battles is a big help to grind out tank RP
Its honestly mainly good for upgrading tanks that are absolutely horrible stock (i.e. they need aphe to be good or something)
And if that’s true, then tank ground combat skills that I’ve been told I need to grind out the tank tech tree to learn becomes irrelevant since air is the ideal grinding vehicle for tank RP.
Not really. Planes in Ground AB give tank RP, but not in air. Sorry if there was any confusion lol. (The way AB works is off a airstrike point system, very different to everything else.)
Some thoughts from an US main:
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Maintain the performance of AA vehicles to keep them still in a defensive position when facing CAS vehicles, which have much higher SP. A “fair fight” between a 70~100 SP vehicle and a 500+ SP vehicle is not fair.
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Instead, provide AA vehicles with unlimited respawn chances without the need for backups, and reduce the cost of repairing AA vehicles. Also, decrease the SL and RP gain for destroying AA vehicles.
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Link the classification of planes to their armament. For example, if a fighter carries bombs larger than a certain mass, it should be classified as a strike aircraft/bomber. Currently, some CAS planes (F8F, P47, P51 etc.) are too easy to be the 2nd spawn as they are “fighters” and do not share the SP with strike aircraft.
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If a plane has CCIP, increasing the SP cost of dumb bombs/rockets, as these bombs function more like semi-guided weapons on a CCIP platform.
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Offer free anti-air vehicles such as drones/helis equipped with AAM or free fighters for players who have not yet progressed through the air tech tree, but with a higher SP and worse performance than their tech-tree alternatives.
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Disable the crew for, say 5 mins after a crash with no damge being casued to the plane (like in Air RB, to discourage suicidal revenge bombing)
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Sell premium AAs.
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You brought some good points, though I am not quite sure what you meant by naval (I don’t play naval at all). Another thing that’d be great moving forward is to put the air base farther away. Helicopters should spawn at the main airfield currently in GRB (around 15 km or 20 km away from battlefield). Jets, especially at top tier where they can go mach 1.0 within 1 minute from taking off, should be spawning at an airfield farther than 15 km. Maybe 50 km, especially with AMRAAM expected to come this year. This allows for buffer time from when someone’s “enraged” and trying to “revenge kill” because now, there’s like what? 3-5 mins of time before the player can start looking for revenge. This change would be great for gameplay + realism at once (I don’t think they make air bases 30 km away from each other).