You talked about WT having arcade mechanics, which is almost exclusively related to repairs and airfield reloading.
@Laserdestroy
lol No it isn’t. At best it’s identical, otherwise it’s more arcade.
Forced 1st person, real crewmembers, crewmembers that must dismount to make repairs, crewmembers that actually have to switch positions manually and can pick which position they go to, commanders that actually stick out of the cupola, all features Warthunder doesn’t have and makes the vehicle combat much more interesting. It is a better vehicle sim, especially since it has Infantry as a target and most vehicles can be used more as designed.
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Aight lemme list them off:
Repairs
Markers in air RB
Artillery
Gunsights (At end of barrel, thats why)
Cap points just existing
3rd person view and mouse aim how it currently works
Being able to look around corners
Seriously, WT is not a sim. At best its a simcade, like I have said. Introducing a mechanic like bombs not detonating if they crash is fine, especially since it would fix an issue we have currently.
Stop obsessing over realism so much, damnit.
Foob spotted, day improved
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1- Is in War Thunder.
2- Is in WT.
3- Is simulated.
4- Is in WT.
5- WT.
6- WT.
All you did was list War Thunder features.
@ZendikarHaven
1- Is in DCS.
2- Is in DCS.
3- Is in DCS.
4- Isn’t in DCS, but WT also has gunner’s optics as well so it doesn’t really matter.
5- Definitely in DCS.
6- The first part is in DCS.
6b- That’s realistic.
7- In DCS.
So by your own examples, you think DCS is “simcade” as well.
War Thunder is just an arcade game that models a few, specific aspects of real-life vehicles like armour thickness or gun penetration. But these aspects function based on simplified arcade mechanics that in no way simulate real physics.
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- Only in two modes, there is no option in Enlisted.
- Debatable how real the crew is, especially when they can’t dismount, use their cupolas, or man their machine guns properly. Only a few open tops have crew modeled visually because if they didn’t that would be really weird.
- Simulated isn’t the same as it actually happening.
- You don’t get to manually choose positions for crewmembers to move to in Warthunder.
- Crewmembers shift automatically in Warthunder.
- Show me the vehicles in Warthunder that the commander can pop out of his cupola.
Heres a bonus one, the vehicles have unique sights standard.
Another bonus one, I’m pretty sure the sights are forced perspective to the actual gunsight, not toggleable like Warthunder.
Your vehicle can fight to the last man. Not just the driver and gunner.
Enlisted is a superior “sim” when compared to Warthunder, definitely not “more arcade”. It has more features than the Simulation modes in Warthunder. The whole existence of Infantry allow the games vehicle combat to be more immersive and accurate. Not that either of them would ever be considered simulation games. Granted Warthunder is more real to life than World of Tanks is, but detailed models and a more realistic damage system doesn’t make Warthunder a sim.
Lmao - you sound like a BRAWNDO user:
Lots of people chimed in with lots of good ideas. Personally, I think a single change will make a lot of impact: 300 SP (equal to an MBT) for AA mission jets. If someone wants to bring an aircraft (fighter jet, CAS jet, heli) with AA loadout (manpads, guns, aam), then it should be as cheap as that. This promotes both sides to be very likely to have at least one or two patrolling aircrafts. The main purpose is that revenge CAS isn’t as straight forward anymore as they’d have to make sure the sky is safe first.
This would also affect the number of SPAA players. Most players avoid playing SPAA because it’s boring. It’s either the sky is full of CAS, or just cricket. With fighter jets costing cheap SP, they have something to worry about. Any time those fighters are neglectful of their flight path, they may die.
This one change is easy to implement (literally changing several variable values) and the impact would be more than enough to make CAS no longer a problem.
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Two more equally easy changes in addition to this would be 1) removing the kill camera from RB (and also Sim) and 2) forcing runway spawn on all planes (as helicopters already pad spawn).
Buffing the counters, adding more counters, and removing “rage mechanics” is the only serious way we all will ever see the end of the constant back-&-forth on CAS.
I would also copy over Naval’s idea of default aircraft appropriate to match BR in every user’s deck, so that now no player is truly defenseless vs aircraft unless they willfully ignore the option to use them. And if they willfully ignore the option to use them, whatever their excuse, they now have no excuse to complain any CAS is “OP,” ever again. Paired with your 300SP clean fighter/only AAM fighter.
Of course, I think the entire “earn SP for vehicles” system is what causes much of the headache, but it needs serious live testing to use Simulator’s SP system in RB alongside kill cam deletion and forced runway spawning before it is brought into the main matchmaker. Same with adding any new objectives for CAS (and tanks where applicable).
J-ing out should lose you all SP earned in that life.
Yes, you could find an enemy to kill you, but the goal isn’t to make it impossible, just less convenient. It also forces you to give SP to the enemy team and RP/SL/etc to another player.
More broadly, I’d like to see Ground adopt elements from Naval’s spawn and aircraft system: Remove SP for ground vehicles, reducing snowball effects and making SP easier to balance as it’s purely for planes, and add the “random plane” options for people who don’t have them researched.
Better still is to merge Naval’s and Simulator Ground’s Spawn Systems. You can’t balance CAS so long as it remains a “powerup,” since one team will always get it up before the other, who then complains how “overpowered” it supposedly is.
1000SP per player, no ability to earn more (which solves all “cap & hold J” issues), tanks intentionally cost no SP and instead you are only billed for ammo used and any that die, SP are just for aircraft. Naval’s default planes would be present for all users much like drones are in high ranks. When you’re out of SP from throwing away CAS senselessly, if your team then gets “air-raided” to death, it’s your own fault.
Then, suddenly, CAS would be unable to knock anyone out of the match. Matches would last longer and be more satisfying for everyone. All users would be able to spawn fighters to swat down CAS at any time, even those who brought no aircraft with them. Which also solves the entire “TO” side of the debate since “TO players” would no longer exist, period.
Ah right, I had forgotten SB uses a fixed total SP pool, that would indeed be much better.
I put forth a suggestion thread with a spreadsheet that would rebalance the CAS spawn point requirements, and it was denied for wishlisting. I doubt that they are going to take any other types of suggestions regarding the SP cost balancing for aircraft. Just wanted to throw this out, because I don’t see them changing the current system anytime soon.
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I would love to see the fixed SP cost implemented in RB.
So your concept of realism came up again today sooo, I recorded the incident, prepared it in Adobe Premier pro and uploaded it to Youtube.
Since I don’t know if its really appropriate to splash a players name around for doing what the game permits, I won’t share the video link here but it is appropriate to share WT player experiences on Youtube. :)
Put simply, the player drove over the top of the map to get to our spawn immediately after the match started. Players where still streaming to the center of the map when he started killing them. We all ended up respawning and knowing the rough area where the player was, we all went hunting for them… And we found the player. The rest I had to go to replay to understand.
The player ducked under temporary cover, immediately appeared hundreds of feet in the air in a 4 engine bomber (how that for unrealistic trash) and began diving at those of us preparing to kill him. I could see the player release 3 bombs and then see the players aircrew bail out of the plane so the player could be in his tank when everyone died.
The player got credit for bomb kills and a number of awards all from the single bombing attack on his own tank. THAT is unrealistic trash! I followed the player afterwards. The same player tried two more times to make their way to the opposing spawn but now the middle of the map had players unlike the first time so in each attempt the player got killed in very short order.
This is a perfect example of one of the abuses of the CAS mechanism in matches and the reason these discussions keep coming up.
Not just fixed SP costs, but most importantly that 1) all aircraft are theoretically capable of being first spawns, 2) fighters to intercept CAS will also be first spawns, and 3) no more “earning” SP means suddenly matches stop snowballing so quickly or easily.
From what I see, CAS is hated mainly for two reasons. 1) revenge bombing and 2) it makes an already winning team snowball to victory that much faster.
Just another classic example of why CAS can never be “balanced” so long as it’s a powerup you “earn.”
No matter what SP costs would be changed to, under the current system one team will always get air up before the other, and the other will then find something to complain about (be it obvious abuse like this or something actually okay).
FF concept was already discussed and it was proven that it will only make ground gameplay worse.
And no, just because air will be from the beginning doesn’t mean that it is up to team to balance it as the same argument can be said now. The only change it brings is the worse situation for people wanting to just play ground units (aka tanks, as at low B.R. clean fighters can deal with almost any ground unit, not to mention panthers dying to 20mm etc. doesn’t need to be anti-ground belt. Not even mentioning open-tops).
FF concept is only good for people wanting to use air in combined mode, not for people who want to play tanks.
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It is up to the team to remember to spawn at least a couple planes with the expectation of enemy air. Note - I would ideally pair the unshackling of aircraft from “powerup” status with across-the board (re)buffing of SPAAGs and SAMs, to enable those to actually kill tanks as well as planes reliably without depending on pilots being careless.
Working ground-to-air counters, planes being first-spawn options, and Naval’s default plane idea work in concert to give all players every tool they could possibly need to counter enemy aircraft.
If you pick a tank, then you do so being fully aware of its weaknesses. A slow rolling box is vulnerable to flanking. An open-top is vulnerable to strafing. You have the counters if aircraft become problematic, it is up to you to learn to use them.