If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

Game Discussion Realistic Battle
2133

Defeatist sentiments and the “SPAA bad” myth are exactly why players get outplayed and defeated by their opponents.

When you choose to lose or don’t have enough experience to make ___ work, of course you’ll end up defeated: they outplayed you! What brings success (skill) takes time to build up, it doesn’t just come to you.

Most SPAAs die to other GFs, not aircraft. The lack of data filtration in WT is what contributes to the “SPAA bad” myth–not what really happens in battle…especially when you consider capabilities and SP costs too.

While I would say your description of the exact ease with which the Yak-9K moves is probably embellished a tad, I will also fully acknowledge the Yak-9K’s current status is bogus.

Historically, the Yak-9K was regarded as a fat cow, treated by its users as being like a heavy fighter (a la Me 410, Pe-3, etc.) and prone to serious reliability issues.

Reliability is not something that’s ever really reflected in-game (see late war Germany) and flight models’ liberties make such classifications as “heavy” into wobbly critiques…but the first point is clearly at odds with the Yak-9K’s current status in game. The Yak-9K should lumber about like a tank–not run about like a ballerina or anything close.

Although I generally find complaints about CAS to be usually meritless, current critiques of the Yak-9K are valid for the reasons above; they should be answered with a change to the Yak-9K’s modeling, BR or both.

Silkmonger’s thread went back to January 2017 and the idea was likely mulled before then…so it’s even older than that.

The only credible avenue forward I see for realizing a TO ‘mode’ is the ‘trigger queue’ concept…but nobody seems keen to lobby for that and so the TO concept as a whole has now languished. Based on history, I doubt that will change soon (if ever).

As I have said for many years, the fact that TO’s chief proponents have done so little to press for the idea and to pitch various aspects of it (a la the trigger queue concept) has likely hurt it in the eyes of the developers. Their thinking is likely along the lines of ‘if they (TO hopefuls) care so little for this, what must others think?’

I’ve always thought increasing air kills with SPAAs to 400% (versus rewards for ground kills by SPAAs) was a good incentive…just an arbitrary number but I think it’d be enticing.

If aircraft truly are so prevalent, there have to be people willing to chase that SL…

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2134

Because of how mode is made, we know that.

That is why You compare SPAA deaths to air and other way around to see the difference and what is better

2135

SPAA demises caused by vehicles and causes (ex. suicide, map border death, etc.) cannot be held against SPAAs or their effectiveness. As there is no practical way to filter data at scale, there’s really no way to analyze things in the manner you have suggested (with the implication that ‘SPAAs are bad’).

When you have someone like @JuicyKuuuuki or a similarly competent SPAA player around…it’s time to find your way away from over the battlefield. Nothing prevents anyone from sharing their feats of abilities in a given vehicle except experience and developed skill. All in all, this is wholly typical of gameplay in WT.

Given their inexpensive SP costs and other capabilities (especially for capturing), SPAAs certainly have their own merits.

2136

I feel like I’m the only person not consistently dying to CAS at Tiers 1-6. I almost never get revenge bombed, I never really get bombed (minus top tier hell) and I play Japan mostly, a nation with lacking early CAS and as a minor nation, can face pretty much everything else. Outliers like the Yak-9K and Kh-38MT are the only ones that get me, along with the Su-25/39 recently as 11.3 JPN has a SPAA range of 5km. Is it really as widespread as some people make it out to be (minus the few I named)?

before people take this the wrong way,
yes i still think CAS should be balanced better. its still possible to just skip a tank by rushing with a heli (Ka-50 mainly). i just dont see it as big as an issue as some people make it out to be.

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2137

The problem is there is less planes then tanks so u cant have the same system of rp and sl for spaa like tanks

2138

Well, from my experience: SPAA die by tanks mostly late game where people mass spawn them because the game is already unplayable in a tank due to CAS infestation and because they are low on SP.

In other words - their team is most likely getting pushed back and they also know that staying at spawn means an imminent death. These 2 coupled together means SPAAs become very vulnerable to enemy tanks going forward. And BTW these SPAAs go forward to help their own team’s tanks in a futile attempt to turn the tide. But the mode is configured in a way that “turning the tide” is highly unlikely. Essentialy dying oncen without scoring a kill or assist already ruins the entire game as player now has a lot lower chance of spawning CAS, which is especially painful in an uptier - all you needed was 1 action, now you have to kill 2-3 guys.
This means that team taking losses early on is basically destined to lose. I have been in a scenariore where I spawned a tank was unlucky to get smacked by Su-152 with my shell magically curving towards some impenetrable spot every time, I respawn, drive out of spawn, I get CASd, it’s game over already for me within 2,5 minutes.

But I digress. The point is - when the game is not being lost YET, so when SPAA can actually hunt planes, it gets slaughtered by planes anyway. I kill a few SPAA for every time I die to one in a goddamn Wyvern which is big, doesn’t turn, bleeds speed like crazy and is NOT good at taking damage, 1 14,5mm soviet godhammer hit will cripple it or kill it. Yet I kill SPAAs in good numbers unless there are multiple around the same area. Then I will most likely die, but it also usually means most of the map is unprotected as SPAAs can be ignored from outside 1000m range most of the time, especially if you follow the dive-pull up routine, which surprisingly makes you insanely hard to hit as your speed is constantly changing.

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2140

Players like you keep insisting it’s skill when maybe, just maybe, it’s a knife vs a gun type of situation.

Have you ever considered that?

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2141

A team that only (or primarily) deploys SPAAs so late as that has already lost the match and probably due to far more than just enemy aircraft action too.

Spoiler

Let’s remember that caps/tickets control the progress of a match whereas kills can only move the needle 100/kill.

As the latter is the only means aircraft with which can influence tickets, their direct effect is limited…an aircraft relies on allied GFs to take cap which really move things along.

As it stands, it’s generally best for a team to have some anti-aircraft means (whether SPAA or defending fighter) by no later than the second spawn. With some swing role SPAAs (40mm armed vehicles come to mind), they can often be effective first spawns.

All of this really comes down to how the vehicles are used rather than anything specific about them.

I’m well aware of the viewpoint you’re expressing–but I don’t necessarily buy into it (individual situations vary).

I don’t think the 'gun versus knife" analogy really fits. Even if we accept what I’d say is a flawed comparison, it doesn’t really say what you seem to imply it does (the suggestion that guns are all around better).

There’s a reason why going into combat with a rifle, a pistol and a knife is typical:in many scenarios, a knife is at least as effective than a gun, if not more so

If you’re at fist fighting range, you don’t want to be swinging around a long gun or perhaps even a pistol…there are situations where a knife simply does the job as well as/better than a firearm. A good hit with one can be just as deadly too.

Between their measly SP costs and capture capabilities, SPAAs have their own merits to boast to encourage usage.

2142

Knife is only effective if you’re going against unarmed enemy or enemy with holstered weapons and the range is v. short. Your comment about knife is extremely detached from reality.

But it’s kinda like that in WT. SPAA may work vs IL-2 after IL-2 slows down to 300km/h.
May be good vs Duck, Me-410, Bf-110 which compresses hard at 550. It’ll be OK vs bombers.

But vs properly armed planes with decentnperformance SPAA is basically guaranteed to die. You can stay at spawn and be outnof range or move forward and get slapped by combined tank and plane assault.
SPAA works when it’s not outnumbered by planes. When it’s not spotted and enemy is not some A-hole spamming .50 cals from 1200m away or sniping you in a vertical dive in Yak-9K. In other words - counting on SPAA dealing with planes is naive. And pretty often SPAA doesn’t even have anything to shoot at. So you’re just making your team weaker and losing your chance at spawning plane ypurself as f.e. Wirbel only works vs tanks straight from the side and below 100m. If you see the front of T-34 or M4 you’re shafted and same applies to 37mm ones. Very fun. But even US 40mm solid shot is useless as it barely deals any damage.

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2143

The principle that there are merits and scenarios for knives is what I was expressing.

As I said, it’s typical for fighters to carry a rifle, pistol and knife for that reason.

SPAAs are one of two options on the table…there are others and each has their own merits. For instance: SPAAs have lower costs and capture capability.

The choice is to the players.

The anti-aircraft capability is valuable as a guard on the aerial flank–but it is true aircraft are often scarce.

Absent the implementation of the Fighters First concept, using SPAAs as a first spawn doesn’t deny aircraft usage.

As for the Yak-9K, I’ve already expressed my disapproval about it above.

2144

No, they carry knife because of general utility of a cutting tool. The utility as a weapon as lower than a big stick anyway.
You should really come back to reality.

The principle is - knife has NO advantage, but it can be used as a back up weapon to a rifle, pistol, rock and a big stick. Hell yeah. This indeed makes it similar to SPAA in usefullness.

They are the “I’m desperate and have no SP” kind of option.

There’s no choice, plane is always better, but people sometimes lack SP.

2145

I don’t care to bog down or bloat the thread with this topic further, but the suggestion that knives are only carried in combat for ‘general utility’ is bizarre and, frankly, naive.

There are combat situations where knives can be just as effective as firearms at ‘neutralizing’ a target if necessary…and that’s why they’re carried (likewise for bayonets). That’s really all there is to it.

Actually, knives have a variety of advantages including: suitability in close quarters, a lack of reliance on ammunition, stealth (silence) and simplicity…just to name a few general traits.

All of these are aspects that weigh in on the merits and viability of a given weapon, whether it’s a firearm, vehicle or “tool” as you say.

SPAAs’ lower costs and, critically, zone capture ability in WT give them advantages over aircraft, whether recognized or not.

Not necessarily. @JuicyKuuuuki has certainly honed the matter…and he rarely seems to be desperate or lacking SP when he decides to mow down the enemy team.

To circle back to this point, which I overlooked earlier:

This is a very peculiar take…40mm shells are rather potent against most of what they see around their debut BRs (3.X-5.X).

When I’m keen to engage in the swing role aspect with my M19 or M42, it’s often as my first spawn when I have plenty of SP to work with. Because of how the 40mm shells work, I can often take out multiple enemies while awaiting enemy aircraft. (When the M42 was 6.7, I used to sneak around the battlefield to pick off enemies including Tiger IIs too.)

There’s no rule that says you have to use SPAAs only when desperate and poor. That’s more of a misconception about how/when SPAAs are/should be used.

When you have enemies in the air to counter but wish to retain the ability to interact with the capture points, SPAAs are the superior option because they enable you to do both. (SP doesn’t really weigh in on this…but SPAAs maintain their advantage on this here too.)

That scenario is extremely common in WT, so…yeah. The underestimation of SPAA has always struck me as strange…but that’s the reality of its perception here: a much rawer reception than it deserves generally.

2146

Knives are (generally) a weapon of last resort - when ammo for your more powerful / ranged weapons is depleted. You think the average soldier is turning to his knife before the assault rifle?

But you missed my point entirely. It’s a balance of power thing.

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2147

Nope, that’s not what I said at all. As I stated previously: “in many scenarios” it becomes the weapon of choice and there can be a variety of reasons for this, though I don’t think here is really the place to detail this.

As I said, I find that whole analogy flawed and a bit goofy…and this trouble others seem to have with grasping it certainly seems to validate my skepticism about it.

Given the varied results and yields players have put forward (ex. @JuicyKuuuuki versus others’), I think your ‘balance of power’ framing is more subjective than you think. While you are entitled to your opinion, it’s still a matter of your perception rather than an outright fact.

2148

Have to say, I am not at all surprised you can’t even accept a simple analogy if it somehow contradicts your position.

Have a good day.

2149

I’m not sure how you’d think the analogy ‘contradicts’ my position (the framing actually validates it, as I explained). My critique of the analogy is that it’s an imperfect, problematic way to have this discussion.

If that makes you upset, sorry.

2150

I like the dual 14.5 Soviet one at low BR, it is fun to use against vehicles and aircraft

2151

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I just now realized this new feature they added when I was away. Can swap maps for air and ground now which was a feature I wish listed before. Now if we can scout planes too at a detection radius of 4km for ranks I to V and 10km for ranks VI to VIII, that would be helpful. Will make this air map a lot more useful as well as being able to keep up tracking multiple planes. Same way how scouting ground vehicles work.

2152

Well, same argument can be made for a banana. Plenty of soldiers carry a banana. I guess that’s a killing banana and people can die to banana just fine “if the circumstances are right”. All we have to do is create some super rare scenario and voila, bananas are just as good as firearms in that scenario where enemy soldier is allergic to banana or slips on a peel.

No way in hell somebody needs a cutting tool. Now go ask a soldier who was actually deployed how did they use a knife. Do knife fights happen? Yeah, 1 happened because lone soldier (big problem by itself!) got heavily wounded and couldn’t use a rifle (his hand got shot) and he had no pistol (another big problem) as non-US soldiers often don’t carry small arms. I guess by your logic they simply consider pistols inferior to knives.
While reality is, pistols are so rarely used most militaries consider them unnecessary weight.
Meanwhile pistol is orders of magnitude better weapon than a knife.
Your claim of “many scenarios” is absolutely made up. Is 1 “many”? And even in this one scenario the guy would be way better off (and still alive today :( ) with a pistol!

But SPAA and knife on a soldier is a good analogy. It has some utility, and it’s horrible as a weapon because everyone is armed with something with way superior range/way more versatile. Nobody uses a knife as a choice. People use a knife because they literally have no other option (no other weapon on them).
Of course SPAA is still relatively waaaay better than a knife as you can ambush soft targets and some plane users are dumb enough. But the fact you went for the most ineffective weapon carried by soldier (field spade is also way superior), and carried only because of being a cutting tool and used as a weapon when forced to (just like SPAA is only spawned because of low SP) is pretty damn telling.

Not a grenade, not a pistol, not a PDW, not a grenade launcher. A goddamn knife. That sums it up pretty good.

2153

I play Fw 190. It’s dogpoop nowadays. I guess if it works in my hands, it’s actually super good.
People like challenges. I can shoot down several planes per match in almost anything that has wings and guns. What does it prove other than me being wya above average in using planes? And I’m super bad at long range shooting and ground attack as I don’t need those in Air RB and I have problem hitting without knowing the range.
Also there are some good SPAAs that shoot at easier to hit planes. Just play Soviet.

Some people like the challenge. Average player in SPAA is just a free kill. Super good player in SPAA is still way less dangerous than a super good player in a plane.

SPAA can cap indeed. That’s one advantage over a plane, I’ll give you that. I’d go for a tank, cap, kill something and spawn a plane anyway.