If you could, how would you re-balance CAS in Ground Battles?

[warrior412]

@Loofah

No, they carry knife because of general utility of a cutting tool. The utility as a weapon as lower than a big stick anyway.
You should really come back to reality.

I don’t care to bog down or bloat the thread with this topic further, but the suggestion that knives are only carried in combat for ‘general utility’ is bizarre and, frankly, naive.

There are combat situations where knives can be just as effective as firearms at ‘neutralizing’ a target if necessary…and that’s why they’re carried (likewise for bayonets). That’s really all there is to it.

@Loofah

The principle is - knife has NO advantage, but it can be used as a back up weapon to a rifle, pistol, rock and a big stick. Hell yeah. This indeed makes it similar to SPAA in usefullness.

Actually, knives have a variety of advantages including: suitability in close quarters, a lack of reliance on ammunition, stealth (silence) and simplicity…just to name a few general traits.

All of these are aspects that weigh in on the merits and viability of a given weapon, whether it’s a firearm, vehicle or “tool” as you say.

SPAAs’ lower costs and, critically, zone capture ability in WT give them advantages over aircraft, whether recognized or not.

@Loofah

They are the “I’m desperate and have no SP” kind of option.

Not necessarily. @JuicyKuuuuki has certainly honed the matter…and he rarely seems to be desperate or lacking SP when he decides to mow down the enemy team.

To circle back to this point, which I overlooked earlier:

@Loofah

even US 40mm solid shot is useless as it barely deals any damage.

This is a very peculiar take…40mm shells are rather potent against most of what they see around their debut BRs (3.X-5.X).

When I’m keen to engage in the swing role aspect with my M19 or M42, it’s often as my first spawn when I have plenty of SP to work with. Because of how the 40mm shells work, I can often take out multiple enemies while awaiting enemy aircraft. (When the M42 was 6.7, I used to sneak around the battlefield to pick off enemies including Tiger IIs too.)

There’s no rule that says you have to use SPAAs only when desperate and poor. That’s more of a misconception about how/when SPAAs are/should be used.

@Loofah

There’s no choice, plane is always better, but people sometimes lack SP.

When you have enemies in the air to counter but wish to retain the ability to interact with the capture points, SPAAs are the superior option because they enable you to do both. (SP doesn’t really weigh in on this…but SPAAs maintain their advantage on this here too.)

That scenario is extremely common in WT, so…yeah. The underestimation of SPAA has always struck me as strange…but that’s the reality of its perception here: a much rawer reception than it deserves generally.

[QTip_44]

@warrior412

I don’t think the 'gun versus knife" analogy really fits. Even if we accept what I’d say is a flawed comparison, it doesn’t really say what you seem to imply it does (the suggestion that guns are all around better).

There’s a reason why going into combat with a rifle, a pistol and a knife is typical:in many scenarios, a knife is at least as effective than a gun, if not more so

Knives are (generally) a weapon of last resort - when ammo for your more powerful / ranged weapons is depleted. You think the average soldier is turning to his knife before the assault rifle?

But you missed my point entirely. It’s a balance of power thing.

[warrior412]

@QTip_44

Knives are (generally) a weapon of last resort - when ammo for your more powerful / ranged weapons is depleted. You think the average soldier is turning to his knife before the assault rifle?

Nope, that’s not what I said at all. As I stated previously: “in many scenarios” it becomes the weapon of choice and there can be a variety of reasons for this, though I don’t think here is really the place to detail this.

As I said, I find that whole analogy flawed and a bit goofy…and this trouble others seem to have with grasping it certainly seems to validate my skepticism about it.

@QTip_44

But you missed my point entirely. It’s a balance of power thing.

Given the varied results and yields players have put forward (ex. @JuicyKuuuuki versus others’), I think your ‘balance of power’ framing is more subjective than you think. While you are entitled to your opinion, it’s still a matter of your perception rather than an outright fact.

[QTip_44]

@warrior412

As I said, I find that whole analogy flawed and a bit goofy…and this trouble others seem to have with grasping it certainly seems to validate my skepticism about it.

Have to say, I am not at all surprised you can’t even accept a simple analogy if it somehow contradicts your position.

Have a good day.

[warrior412]

@QTip_44

Have to say, I am not at all surprised you can’t even accept a simple analogy if it somehow contradicts your position.

I’m not sure how you’d think the analogy ‘contradicts’ my position (the framing actually validates it, as I explained). My critique of the analogy is that it’s an imperfect, problematic way to have this discussion.

If that makes you upset, sorry.

[quartas121]

I like the dual 14.5 Soviet one at low BR, it is fun to use against vehicles and aircraft

[Cookies_Juicebox]

I just now realized this new feature they added when I was away. Can swap maps for air and ground now which was a feature I wish listed before. Now if we can scout planes too at a detection radius of 4km for ranks I to V and 10km for ranks VI to VIII, that would be helpful. Will make this air map a lot more useful as well as being able to keep up tracking multiple planes. Same way how scouting ground vehicles work.

[Loofah]

@warrior412

There are combat situations where knives can be just as effective as firearms at ‘neutralizing’ a target

Well, same argument can be made for a banana. Plenty of soldiers carry a banana. I guess that’s a killing banana and people can die to banana just fine “if the circumstances are right”. All we have to do is create some super rare scenario and voila, bananas are just as good as firearms in that scenario where enemy soldier is allergic to banana or slips on a peel.

No way in hell somebody needs a cutting tool. Now go ask a soldier who was actually deployed how did they use a knife. Do knife fights happen? Yeah, 1 happened because lone soldier (big problem by itself!) got heavily wounded and couldn’t use a rifle (his hand got shot) and he had no pistol (another big problem) as non-US soldiers often don’t carry small arms. I guess by your logic they simply consider pistols inferior to knives.
While reality is, pistols are so rarely used most militaries consider them unnecessary weight.
Meanwhile pistol is orders of magnitude better weapon than a knife.
Your claim of “many scenarios” is absolutely made up. Is 1 “many”? And even in this one scenario the guy would be way better off (and still alive today :( ) with a pistol!

But SPAA and knife on a soldier is a good analogy. It has some utility, and it’s horrible as a weapon because everyone is armed with something with way superior range/way more versatile. Nobody uses a knife as a choice. People use a knife because they literally have no other option (no other weapon on them).
Of course SPAA is still relatively waaaay better than a knife as you can ambush soft targets and some plane users are dumb enough. But the fact you went for the most ineffective weapon carried by soldier (field spade is also way superior), and carried only because of being a cutting tool and used as a weapon when forced to (just like SPAA is only spawned because of low SP) is pretty damn telling.

Not a grenade, not a pistol, not a PDW, not a grenade launcher. A goddamn knife. That sums it up pretty good.

[Loofah]

@warrior412

and he rarely seems to be desperate or lacking SP when he decides to mow down the enemy team.

I play Fw 190. It’s dogpoop nowadays. I guess if it works in my hands, it’s actually super good.
People like challenges. I can shoot down several planes per match in almost anything that has wings and guns. What does it prove other than me being wya above average in using planes? And I’m super bad at long range shooting and ground attack as I don’t need those in Air RB and I have problem hitting without knowing the range.
Also there are some good SPAAs that shoot at easier to hit planes. Just play Soviet.

Some people like the challenge. Average player in SPAA is just a free kill. Super good player in SPAA is still way less dangerous than a super good player in a plane.

SPAA can cap indeed. That’s one advantage over a plane, I’ll give you that. I’d go for a tank, cap, kill something and spawn a plane anyway.

[ChalkUpOneMore-psn]

Ahh, the old ONE SHOT Yak9! Impossible accuracy, never a shell waste and it’s Russian…funny that! In fact IL2, IL8 both Russian AND never miss, nothing like watching the REAL archive footage of chasing the shells/bullets into the target. Is there a theme here I wonder? Where IS the realism?

[Loofah]

And then there’s TIS MA and that other attacker with several 45mm. Of course behind paywall because ROFL, please suffer, freeloader. TIS MA is still fairly maneuvrable, but at least a tiny bit easier to hit and can’t loop all day long so there’s that.

[warrior412]

@Loofah

Well, same argument can be made for a banana. Plenty of soldiers carry a banana. I guess that’s a killing banana and people can die to banana just fine “if the circumstances are right”. All we have to do is create some super rare scenario and voila, bananas are just as good as firearms in that scenario where enemy soldier is allergic to banana or slips on a peel.

Scenarios where a knife is more fitting than a firearm (a la a covert raid reliant on surprise, stealth, etc) are far more sensible than anything related to this absurdist banana talk.

That knife analogy has really proven itself lousy with all this straying into the weeds.

@Loofah

I guess by your logic they simply consider pistols inferior to knives.

I never said anything on that topic, so you cannot contest anything about my logic on that.

The only thing even remotely related is that this knife analogy was a goofy, imperfect premise to start from.

@Loofah

Your claim of “many scenarios” is absolutely made up. Is 1 “many”? And even in this one scenario the guy would be way better off (and still alive today :( ) with a pistol!

Actually, what I said simply demonstrates a fuller understanding of the matter, not anything ‘made up.’

While you (incorrectly) presume a knife will always be an option of last resort or a choice made of desperation, I have disproved that by citing a counterexample (operations focused on stealth) that discredits that. Close quarters are another area where the knife is a preferred choice…nevermind your utility angle.

@Loofah

But the fact you went for the most ineffective weapon carried by soldier (field spade is also way superior), and carried only because of being a cutting tool and used as a weapon when forced to (just like SPAA is only spawned because of low SP) is pretty damn telling.

• The knife analogy was not something I started

• SPAAs are not ‘only’ spawned because of low SP

@Loofah

I play Fw 190. It’s dogpoop nowadays. I guess if it works in my hands, it’s actually super good.

Without specifying the exact model and situation, this statement is too vague to really judge in any serious way.

Conditions and context matter as well as individuals’ preferences and skill levels varying. All of that matters to such calls.

@Loofah

Average player in SPAA is just a free kill. Super good player in SPAA is still way less dangerous than a super good player in a plane.

All of that is–charitably–your opinion.

If I was being generous, I’d say your characterization paints the involved dynamics far too broadly. If I was being harsh, I’d say it’s too vague to be meaningful at all (you’d have to specific more things like BR range to even start pinning things down).

The reality of SPAA versus aircraft comparisons is that there are a ton of variations in how they interact with their surroundings and peers. Your latter statement in particular can be proven very untrue.

For instance: something like the L-62 can go on a slaughter at 3.X (and even higher, the 40mm shells bite) whereas many fighter aircraft of that range are clean (7mm MGs are still common and not all larger caliber weapons have decent pen) which leave them no serious means at attacking a whole set of enemies (such as armored vehicles)) and here player skill does not affect penetration values or loadout capabilities.

@Loofah

And then there’s TIS MA and that other attacker with several 45mm. Of course behind paywall because ROFL, please suffer, freeloader. TIS MA is still fairly maneuvrable, but at least a tiny bit easier to hit and can’t loop all day long so there’s that.

I own the TIS MA and will express my dubiousness about its maneuverability…for its size, I have my doubts.

As for the ‘paywall’ bit, that is not technically true–it was a vehicle obtained through an event originally. Now it is subject to the GJN Marketplace and all that comes with that.

@ChalkUpOneMore-psn

Ahh, the old ONE SHOT Yak9! Impossible accuracy, never a shell waste and it’s Russian…funny that! In fact IL2, IL8 both Russian AND never miss, nothing like watching the REAL archive footage of chasing the shells/bullets into the target. Is there a theme here I wonder? Where IS the realism?

While I understand your complaint and will freely tell you the game and its mechanics being what they are enhance accuracy for all, realism isn’t really as sturdy a ground to complain upon as you might think.

Few tanks during the war had third-person POV controls but that control method is standard here in spite of its ‘realistic liberty’ as you might call it.

[Loofah]

@warrior412

la a covert raid reliant on surprise, stealth, etc) a

That’s pure fantasy on the same level as banana talk. Except people actually die to banana allergy way more often than soldiers use knives “for stealth”.
Your “example” is 100% made up from modern perspective. maybe during WW2 where people had super lousy flashlights or none, hearing loss and bolt action rifles and still it only happened to a few soldiers in a war where 20 milion soldiers died.

Close quarters is where rifle and pistol beat knife every time.

@warrior412

Close quarters are another area where the knife is a preferred choice…

That’s why every house and trench clearing operation is done with rifles and grenades and on a super-rare ocasion pistol is used. Yeah, that’s because you can’t shoot somebody point blank…

…oh wait.

@warrior412

All of that is–charitably–your opinion.

That’s a fact hence I score a ton of SPAA kills even in Fw 190 F8. It’s small so they can’t hit me. I hit them just fine from 900-1000m away using stealth belts.
And I’m a horrible shot vs ground targets.
SPAA is plane fodder. Some are good as tank destroyers, though and these are indeed fun.

Every event vehicle nowadays is behind a paywall, unless someone has extreme amounts of time to grind. Haven’t managed to grind anything other than BP vehicles since like 2015.

And remember, Il-2 is like what, 3.0. it can roflstomp tanks from 1200m away with these 23mm cannons. You can down it with SPAA if he doesn’t see you first. And that’s a big if.
7,62mm armed planes are not a norm beyond 2.3BR. wuite the contrary.

[warrior412]

I’ve grown bored with the knife analogy, so I spoilered that portion for brevity…

Spoiler

@Loofah

That’s pure fantasy on the same level as banana talk. Except people actually die to banana allergy way more often than soldiers use knives “for stealth”.
Your “example” is 100% made up from modern perspective. maybe during WW2 where people had super lousy flashlights or none, hearing loss and bolt action rifles and still it only happened to a few soldiers in a war where 20 milion soldiers died.

Close quarters is where rifle and pistol beat knife every time.

I’m not sure why you believe knives are not in use…the only thing made-up here is this ‘100%’ talk, as that sort of absolutism is plainly unrealistic.

@Loofah

That’s why every house and trench clearing operation is done with rifles and grenades and on a super-rare ocasion pistol is used. Yeah, that’s because you can’t shoot somebody point blank…

…oh wait.

You are referring to larger groups clearing things where the risks of taking long guns into close quarters fights is reduced by the others’ ability to offer mutual protection. In a situation with fewer people (especially one) and such mutual protection doesn’t exist, the idea of relying upon a firearm (especially a long gun) is riskier and a knife may be preferable due to the ranges involved.

All that this back and forth is proving is the faults of the original knife analogy…it was always imperfect.

@Loofah

That’s a fact hence I score a ton of SPAA kills even in Fw 190 F8. It’s small so they can’t hit me. I hit them just fine from 900-1000m away using stealth belts.
And I’m a horrible shot vs ground targets.
SPAA is plane fodder. Some are good as tank destroyers, though and these are indeed fun.

Considering that many SPAAs have closed tops roofs (T77E1/Coelian) or nearly so (Wirbelwind/Ostwinds), calling these things as ‘fodder’ remains your opinion and I’d argue it’s a stretch at that.

I don’t think of even my more open Dusters as ‘fodder’ (as I see it, that’s just defeatist thinking and encourages losses) despite their greater vulnerability to gunfire.

@Loofah

Every event vehicle nowadays is behind a paywall, unless someone has extreme amounts of time to grind. Haven’t managed to grind anything other than BP vehicles since like 2015.

I cannot say I agree even though my time is limited by a typical work week and other obligations.

Spoiler

I haven’t had any problems with most of the events (such as the T-34-85 Partisan one that just finished) or the Warbond/Battle Pass ones. Even with a full schedule when I’ve decided to pursue them, I’d say they only take ~2-4 hrs/day for the 35k points task events, depending on how things go.

Generally speaking, many of the events can be knocked over as long as you have a strategy on how to do them in an efficient manner. (I say ‘many’ and not ‘most’ because while liked the crafting events’ basic concept…but not their concept or timings).

@Loofah

And remember, Il-2 is like what, 3.0. it can roflstomp tanks from 1200m away with these 23mm cannons. You can down it with SPAA if he doesn’t see you first. And that’s a big if.

Given the problems associated with gun convergence at 1200m, that seems like a lofty figure. 800m is the highest setting and at 1200mm you’ll have to do some fancy aiming to place your shots…it’s certainly not optimized at that range.

I know I’ve also gunned down many IL-2s inside that range, even when being fired upon and also wounded too. Being attacked doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll be killed (repairs being what they are for GFs also favor the SPAAs).

@Loofah

7,62mm armed planes are not a norm beyond 2.3BR. wuite the contrary.

While other weapons like the 20mm cannons of things such as the A6Ms or Bf 109s are around by 3.X to support the 7mm MGs, those cannons often also lack anti-armor ability.

[Loofah]

@warrior412

You are referring to larger groups clearing things where the risks of taking long guns into close quarters fights is reduced by the others’ ability to offer mutual protection.

That’s a lie.
Firearms are superior at every distance other than hugging distance.

IRL you can’t respawn. Literally nobody is walking around with knife drawn if he has ammo for his rifle or has a pistol. Why? Because knife puts you in immediate disadvantage vs anyone who is armed with any other nob-improvised weapon. During WW1 trench raids people used clubs and shovels. Why? Because these consistently beat knives too. But clubs and shovels were vastly inferior to pistols, shotguns and SMGs.

Stop.living your teenage ninja power fantasy, kid.

@warrior412

Considering that many SPAAs have closed tops roofs (T77E1/Coelian) or nearly so (Wirbelwind/

Wirbel is as “nearly” to closed top as knife is to an effective modern weapon. Wirbel is getting roflstomped by .303 MGs because not only it has open top but also holes in armor around the guns.

Coelian is not available so discussing it makes no sende. Kugel fights jets, so it’s not useful in any lineup. So there we go, that’s all “closed top” German vehicles for you. Probably same applies to Italy, Japan, Sweden (outside of that one cold war vehicle cosplaying as early war, it can withstand some German guns) damn, maybe even Soviets.

Brits and US have some armored vehicles, that’s true. IL-2 still goes through, but yeah, a lot of planes can’t. But they are generally relatively easy to dodge and outside of .50 cal armed one they have bad range.

Too bad many nationd don’t have anywhere close to that level of comfort (which is still damn low) And too bad these SPAAs have horrible chances to score any ground kills.

[warrior412]

@Loofah

That’s a lie.
Firearms are superior at every distance other than hugging distance.

What I said isn’t a lie–it’s correct. When you have mutual protection, you don’t have to worry about someone at close range getting the drop on you because you couldn’t get the firearm (especially long guns) on them at that distance.

Even if we take your claim of ‘superiority’ as correct, that wouldn’t discount the sufficiency of another weapon (a la a knife) to be effective too.

@Loofah

Stop.living your teenage ninja power fantasy, kid.

I had to laugh this–it was good humor. Putting aside the likelihood that I’m probably old enough to be your big brother, that I’m being less absolutist and more realistic about how variable reality plays out is not a fantasy–it’s realism. As I’ve said many times…conditions vary.

There’s a reason guys going in to confront folks with ‘inferior’ weaponry don’t rush in because they have ‘superior’ weaponry. If the weaponry connects, it’ll hurt.

“Superiority” won’t mean much when “sufficient” will do the job. That’s true in reality and in WT.

@Loofah

Wirbel is as “nearly” to closed top as knife is to an effective modern weapon. Wirbel is getting roflstomped by .303 MGs because not only it has open top but also holes in armor around the guns.

The Wirbelwind and Ostwind have fairly hefty armoring, especially compared to others. While it is possible to spray them and hope for some hits neutralizing its turret crew, that makes you a stationary target to the same…which doesn’t make it a very enticing prospect to try. It’s a risky gamble with anyone who isn’t asleep.

As I have the Coelian and enjoyed it, I cannot say I share your dismissal of it nor that the Kugelblitz’ situation makes it inherently unsuitable for use (though I will acknowledge I have yet to try it for myself).

[Loofah]

@warrior412

I’m being less absolutist and more realistic about how variable reality plays out is not a fantasy–it’s realism.

Talking about “many cases” where certain weapon is practically never used. Discussing “superiority” when certain weapon is never CHOSEN.
A lot of children and man-childs dream this power fantasy of defeating guns in melee. You know, space marines and stuff. If you are like 40 years old, then it’s just super sad. Play some computer games and stop mistaking them for reality.

Banana peels and banana allergy have killed plenty of people. So I guess they have “many” cases where they are superior to firearms. Also silent and 100% biodegradable.

Wirbel and Ost both have virtually no armorinf vs planes. Vs tank MGs they will protect you at long range cause at short range your crewmen will die through the gaps in armor.
There’s no gamble, they are an easy kill.

Kugel at 6.7 was OK, at 7.0 it’s useless. It’s higher ROF, waaaay less range alternative to Coelian. 58mm pen is not a lot and HVAP is of very limited use and you have 1 in like 4? Used to have 93 pen, but that was too much and Gaijin nerfed it just enough so it xan’t hurt soviet mediums and heavies at that BR.

[warrior412]

@Loofah

Talking about “many cases” where certain weapon is practically never used. Discussing “superiority” when certain weapon is never CHOSEN.

A lot of children and man-childs dream this power fantasy of defeating guns in melee. You know, space marines and stuff. If you are like 40 years old, then it’s just super sad. Play some computer games and stop mistaking them for reality.

If you don’t understand the potency of a weapon because you’re blinded by this “superiority” take…that’s unfortunate, especially given that you imply I have hyped knives when I have not.

What I have said on these matters has been realistic and serious…moderate really. I haven’t tried to say anything was always or never the case, I just acknowledged the possibilities involved.

Believing that a ‘superior’ weapon is always preferable or that an 'inferior" weapon is never sufficient is mistaken, as reality has proven many times.

As a side note: absolute terms like ‘always’ and ‘never’ are very poor words to select in discussions because even one single counterexample destroys the claim–as I showcased earlier. Broader, more open terminology is almost always more realistic.

---

All in all, the whole knife analogy has proven to be a bizarre yet fascinating tangent. It’s a far cry from where things started.

SPAAs shouldn’t be counted out…that’s really all there is to say in sum-up.

[Loofah]

@warrior412

If you don’t understand the potency of a weapon because you’re blinded by this “superiority” take…that’s unfortunate, especially given that you imply I have hyped knives when I have not

You are still doing this. It all started with “many situations”, and “,close quarters superiority” while one is false in the “many” part while the other is an absolute made up power fantasy.
Just talk to some soldiers maybe.

Moderate approach is: knife is no longer truely a weapon and should be considered a tool and indeed in many armies it’s designed accordingly.
Comparing SPAA to a knife is simply openly stating that SPAA is a last ditch effort that will result in an almost guaranteed failure unless facing another SPAA. I don’t agree but I respect such view, as the game clearly shows that overwhelming majority of SPAA are just free kills.

@warrior412

as reality has proven many times.

Show me those cases of someone choosing a knife in a modern conflict over f.e. a pistol.
Oh, yes, for spreading butter on a bread.
Pistol is not good. Also for cutting sausage I definitely choose a knife.

It’s all about probability. What will work. A banana? Or a knife? What is more useful in close quarter combat Nutrition provided by banana. Or added movement speed provided by knife, because life is like counter strike, oh wait, it isn’t. Banana provides nutrition and deadly banana peel (and also can work vs enemies allergic to bananas) and knife-wielding power-fantasy kiddo will provide target practice for properly armed opponents.
So overal - banana seems to be superior. Potassium is very important.
Of course soldiers carry a knife because they need a cutting tool. If they did not, they would carry a banana.

SPAA is slightly superior in this regard. With masterful performance it can beat avg plane user. But that’s it. If our SPAA master faced equally skilled plane user, he would eat RP-3 from 1300m away.

[warrior412]

@Loofah

You are still doing this

I’ve acknowledged the possibilities…but I have no interest in bothering with the knife bit further.

@Loofah

Comparing SPAA to a knife is simply openly stating that SPAA is a last ditch effort that will result in an almost guaranteed failure unless facing another SPAA. I don’t agree but I respect such view, as the game clearly shows that overwhelming majority of SPAA are just free kills.

In a rather fitting twist, I can tell you I debuted the T77E1 hours ago on Finland and I thoroughly enjoyed what it offered.

I believe I took out 2 or 3 aircraft plus a stray Wirbelwind…despite the utterly stock vehicle and new status, I felt pretty comfy with the T77. The only glaring flaw I personally found in it was (is) its Tier II rank.

To close things up for the time being, I thing it’s fair to say you and I have very divergent views on these matters.